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Podcast Guesting Pro founder Graham Brown joins podcast hosts Anna Geary and Anita Baldwin on the "Marketing made easy from Get Savvy Club" podcast to discuss storytelling and humanising stories. The following is a transcript of their conversation. For more tips on podcast guesting success, go to our podcast guesting resources.

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Speaker 00:00
Marketing made easy, the podcast. Now, here are your hosts from Get Savvy club, Anna Geary and Anita Baldwin.

Anita Baldwin 00:08
Hello everyone. Welcome to another episode of marketing made easy by the get savvy club. I'm Anita Baldwin, and I'm here as usual with my sidekick, Anna Geary.  

Anna Geary 00:18
I'm good. Apart from, I've got a spot it's really annoying as well. It's really. 

Anita Baldwin 00:22
We should just color it brown and do like a…

Anna Geary 00:24
So today we've… the guest that we got on today. By chance I just came across, podbean where we put our, we have our podcast on obviously lots of different platforms, but pod bean is where it's hosted. It randomly just started playing me an episode that he was on with some on somebody else's podcast that I'd never listened to before. So, oh, actually, this guy's pretty interesting. So I thought, you know, I'd reach out and get him onto our podcast as well. So, he lives out in Singapore, runs a podcast business, but what I find  really fascinating, 

Anita Baldwin 00:55

He's living my life. He’s traveled all around the world, lived in Japan, New Zealand, just traveled all around the world and now is living in Singapore. And that's my dream. Cause I don't like it. I'll just move on one day. Those kids, yeah. Holding me back.

Anna Geary 01:13 

They'll probably have like babies really early on and then you'll just be like one of those grandmas. Live for the babies. You met me. Didn't live for my own babies. No problem. I quite like the idea of moving by anyway. Not yet, but one of the things that we speak about in this podcast episode for me, which you've really gotta think about, especially if you're a product business, you can't hide behind your brand. Sometimes people take so much effort and time to create like this logo. And it's all about what this logo looks like and the colors and the fonts. And actually, we want to know you more and more. We want to know the human behind the business that we're working with. And I don't know, I think it was already happening before the lockdown, the pandemic all of that. I think it was already a movement that was happening, but I think even more so since that, now people want to be connected to people, not faceless corporations. So it's fantastic. This guy, Graham. What he does is he tries to help these corporates have more of a human side to them, not just a name of a company. Cause I used to work for someone and it was like, oh, tell them we've been around for this many years. And I myself, when I work there think, well, I don't care about that. So why, why they gonna care about that? You don't care. It's not how long someone's been established. It's what outcomes they're going to get for you. Not the fact they've been around for a million years

Anita Baldwin 02:27

What I think is really interesting is that when you've got your own business and you look at the people on, you know, the big companies who advertise on the TV and they spend millions on marketing and you're like, oh, I had their resources, but I'm kind of struggling along. And actually what's happening now is those big corporates are kind of taking a leaf out of the small entrepreneurs books and saying, actually we need to give a face behind this Brand. And because, you know, we say to people all the time, people buy people, so get yourself out there and let people know who you are, so that they want to work with you. And we work with a lot of people, not a lot of people, but sometimes we work with people who have put their logo on as their profile picture on either Facebook or LinkedIn or whatever. And we are like, no, no, put a picture of yourself on. And it's difficult for the great big, you know, 20,000 workers businesses to do that. But I guess Graham's found a way to help them to kind of show the human side of their business because they realize how important it is. And, you know, as, small businesses and people who own and run our businesses, it's really easy for us to do that. So actually that's an advantage we've got, isn't it. I know we don't have like 10 million to spend on marketing, but we do have that, 

Anna Geary 03:36

but you've gotta think of the positives. Haven't you? The pros of being a smaller business is the fact that you can just bootstrap. You can just change things on a whim. That's not working. Stop it. These big faceless corporates. It takes so long for change. 

Anita Baldwin 03:49 

We used to call it when I was in like a massive global business and we wanted to change something. We used to call it turning the super tanker, cuz that's what it felt like. And you've gotta go like you probably do another 50 miles, just slowing it down. Then you've gotta try and turn it around. So actually to make change happen, you're like, okay. We like, here's our five year plan to make this change. And in a small business. Yeah, right. I'll just do it like this from now on. And it's great. Yeah. 

Anna Geary 04:13
I'm gonna stop that. I'm gonna stop that from now. Yeah. 

Anita Baldwin 04:16 

So interesting guy, definitely. And obviously living an interesting life in Singapore, not that you told us that much about it, did he?

Anna Geary 04:23

Well, maybe it's a, one of those things, it's secret. And people that are there and don't want first rule of living. Don't tell anyone that you live there. Anyway, let's get into it. Let's get into it.

Speaker 04:35

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Graham Brown 04:42

I'm a storyteller. So that's what I do. And that's how I get paid. It was one of those things that as a kid, We'd get you into trouble. You know, your mom would don't tell stories. and that was always a bad thing. You've always got scolded for that, but somehow I managed to make that pay through a very convoluted journey, but many years later, storytelling being podcasting. So I help brands tell stories, particularly corporates, large management consultancies, and banks who need to in, in many. And has really been expedited in the last couple of years with what's going on in the world, put a human face. Yeah. On their communication. 

Anita Baldwin 05:22 

Yeah. I was say they tried to humanize themselves are they by 

Graham Brown 05:25 

very much so, you know, for many different reasons. And at the same time, I think their traditional channels of marketing and communications have been challenged. You know, they're not investing in conferences like they used to cuz they're just not happening anymore. And people are looking at how can we go digital with our communications and marketing. And that's where we are. That's one form one channel. 

Anna Geary 05:46

To me that sounds like a tough gig to get corporates to become more human . We help people track lights using social media and yeah, undoubtedly it is tougher when you're working with someone that's been, you know, in that corporate world or their life. And then now they've got their own business, for example, and they wanna get out there and they, they do struggle. So I imagine if you're still in that corporate world, going out there and telling stories and, and being yourself and being human would be even, even bigger as well. 

Anita Baldwin 06:16

How does a corporate or a bank or something like that have a podcast? 

Graham Brown 06:20

It's an interesting question. I mean, you're right. I mean, how do they do this? Because traditionally they're being taken the other way, you know, maybe 

Anita Baldwin 06:27

they on a win without that stuffy CEO and to get him on there probably do you, there's not that many around the board table who's got the personality to get out there surely.

Graham Brown 06:37

They have the personality but the problem is that if you think about the whole model of business as an industrial model, which is all about efficiency, really, you think the factory model, which banks, management, consultancies, law firms, manufacturers, it's all an industrial model. Think about traditional communications like PR. So if you go onto TV or you go onto radio, it's all heavily controlled. You know, you have handlers, you want the questions beforehand? You can't ask Mr. So and so that question. So that's traditional because it's about efficiency. It's about how do we eliminate the chances that this will go wrong? And that's traditional communications, which has always been about controlling the message. You know, like a pipeline, make sure the pipeline doesn't leak. And therefore the people that you mention will then come across as inhuman, uncaring. And without personality, because that's been extracted from them as a result of the process, but interesting. Yeah. 

Anna Geary 07:43 

Sometimes that's how they got to the top as well was, you know, oh yeah. Well, they played the game being saying the right thing at the right time to the right. I was terrible when I had a job by the way. Cause they couldn't do all these things that these super people can do to get to the top of that. But obviously they're ultimately, well, not ultimately, but a lot of them aren't their real self when they went by the time they, they can't. How did you get into the, into the sentence? That's not always been the thing that you did. What did, what did you before this?

Graham Brown 08:05 

Oh, well, I've always been in communications and you know, in 1999 I set up a mobile communications agency in research because I've always been, I mean, my background is psychology and artificial intelligence. I was always interested in how people communicate, whether it's language, cultures, or relationships and psychology was just a way of understanding it. So how could I take that into the corporate world? I was seeing the boom of mobile communications in the late nineties, young kids using mobile phones I'd been living in Japan in the nineties, saw Japanese high school girls texting in 1996, took that back to the UK and thought, oh, this is gonna happen. This is gonna go global, knocked on all, wrote a report, knocked on all the doors of the mobile phone companies in nineteen ninety eight, ninety nine. And they all said, we don't do kids not interested. 98, 99. That's the biggest market. Yeah. And I said, no, wait, hang on a second. I've seen the future. It's young people communicating, sharing, and sending messages now. No, we are focused on road warriors. It was all road warriors back then. It was all mid

Anita Baldwin 09:14

It's funny cuz it's people don't like change. Do they? Even people are leading like businesses that are supposed to be at the forefront of technology. But essentially they're like, oh no, this is our market. This is what we focus on. We don't change a word, not willing to, you know, see outside of our own thinking

Graham Brown 09:28 

outside of their thinking part is really dealing with people that they don't understand. So when you're talking about branding, Branding is a dehumanizing process. It's effectively taking a company and representing it with a clown or a logo or a mascot rather than a person, but people follow people, not brands, right. That's the reality today. So when you go into these companies, whether it's a mobile phone company or a management consultancy or a bank, it's all about. How do we unlock the humans inside this business and get them talking, give them a voice, because that is what people care about. I don't care about your brand. I don't care about your logo. I don't care about your corporate mission statement. I care about you, that person, you might be the CEO or the poster in person, but I care about you and I connect with you. And that is the challenge of marketing today. Marketing has to be about how do you build around people? And people's stories, not brands because brands are proxies for people. 

Anita Baldwin 10:26  

That was, how do you do that in a corporate environment that might have 20,000 people in there? 

Graham Brown 10:31

Well, in 20,000 people, 5% will want to do this, which is great. So, you know, do the math on that. It's like, there's the problem is, they've never been given the bandwidth to do it Anita, that's the problem. They never have had somebody who gave them the green light. Everybody's got a story to tell. 

Anita Baldwin 10:47 

Yeah. So you just go and use the podcast as the vehicle to publish those stories. Your job is to get the stories out of the people and put it out via a podcast. Is that right? 

Graham Brown 10:55 

Well, they have a, they have a you know, a broader mission statement with, or mission with what they want to do in terms of their messaging. And now the podcast, it fits into that. So, you know, for example, we work with a bank who not on the retail side, so it focuses on high net worth individuals or family officers. So they're selling to them effectively. So it's like, how do you make that work? They can't sell through the podcast, but what they can do is they can present their people. Yeah, and this is what their people know. This is, you know, this is what you need to know about precious metals in December, that kind of thing. Or this is what you need to know about electric vehicles or Bitcoin. And they're create like a go to for that building trust. I mean, you know, no, like trust that's for them, how they do it, build their funnel. 

Anna Geary 11:39

Yeah. When I was listening to you on another podcast, Graham, I heard that  cuz you are not actually here in the, although everybody that's listening can here, You've got a UK accent. You're not in the UK. Are you now have moved? So, uh, tell the listeners. Where you live and how, how you ended up being there.

Graham Brown 11:54 

I lived in Singapore. I left the UK in 2012. I had a telecoms business. We sold the business. I had basically got tired of it. It'd run its course. We'd done just over 12 years of it, sold the business. And then we had a conversation. Me and my wife, my son was six at the time. And we said like, what do we do? I really don't wanna start another business, which is what a lot of entrepreneurs do. Actually they sell business, come from one. 

Anita Baldwin 12:18

Yeah. Again, it's what they know, isn't it.

Graham Brown 12:20 

They only know the noise and the activity and the addiction to all of that. And then, but I was really starting to ask bigger questions about what I wanted to do. So we said, I don't wanna start a business and I don't need to really. So we basically packed everything. We just basically decluttered all our stuff. So sold everything. Didn't just sell the business, sold everything, you know, everything else.

Anita Baldwin 12:40 

It must have felt amazing. 

Graham Brown 12:42

It was, cuz we I've got a picture of my son standing next to three suitcases. No, that's all you own. That's all we had. And then we, we, I love that I had a van actually. I dropped a whole bunch off at my mom's house. Like never saw that stuff again, that just got moth board somewhere. And then we decided we bought a one way ticket to New Zealand, cuz that was the other side of the world. We flew to New Zealand and then we traveled the world for just about six years. Just had us three. We stayed like we lived places, but yeah, the whole point was like we were gonna travel around and experience life. 

Anita Baldwin 13:22 

So does your son feel like he is British or just like no real allegiance to any particular country? 

Graham Brown 13:30

That's an interesting question. This, you know, I don't think the conversation comes up that you know, who am I? And it's not really, he doesn't define himself that way for sure. Yeah. I mean, you know 

Anita Baldwin 13:43

Does he sound British?

Graham Brown 13:45 

Yeah. I mean, he goes to a British school. Oh yeah. It's an international school. So obviously he's impacted by that, but he doesn't feel strong allegiance there, but it's just part of his heritage. He's half Japanese half British anyway. So, you know, it's like for him, it's just normal. He just lives on the world. Well, boundaryless. Yeah. Why not? Yeah. You know, I think we need it in this day and age. We, you know, look at work now. It's like we are talking and we are on the other sides of the planet talking to each other, and this is just normal. Isn't it? It's like nothing.

Anna Geary 14:15

Being the fact that you went around the world. What made you settle in Singapore? Cuz that's not where either of you from, oh,

Graham Brown 14:19 

Singapore's a great place. I mean, it's, you know, it, it's very familiar if you're from Britain, you're very familiar with the, the culture, obviously it's a very strong Chinese influence here. 

Anna Geary 14:31

I think I sort post that. You put on LinkedIn, LinkedIn, I think you said like it's clean and it works. That's it and thought, wow. What, what more do you need? What more do you want? I dunno if he's on that podcast or on a post that dinner thought well clean and it works. What, what more do you want?

Graham Brown 14:43

What if you've grown a business? Yeah, that's kind of basic stuff. I mean, before this, we lived out in the Canary island. Well, before, before, before this lived in the Canary islands, out of Africa and you know, that was pretty hard to do business out there when you don't have internet. 

Anita Baldwin 15:01

And I know we're probably spoiled, but we are intensely… 

Graham Brown 15:05

Well, come on. I don't think it's been spoiled. It’s a basic, and here's the other thing as well about living on islands, because I've lived on a few, Okinawa, for example, right out in the East China sea, these sort of subtropical islands I've lived on, you know, this is real Instagram stuff, but the reality is actually after some time they get boring. Yeah. And that if you are an entrepreneur, which I am, and you both are, is that you are driven by different things that yes, you like all that kind of Instagram sunset type stuff. But the reality is, that what really drives you is something different. And only I discovered this through traveling, is that lying on these tropical beaches? I thought I really miss other people and the hustle. Yeah. And I miss the challenge and making stuff and that vibe that you get, the camaraderie, when you do stuff together, I really missed all of that. And it comes back to what makes you happy? 

Anna Geary 16:04

Yeah. Cause I always feel like that and the other day I was on  another beach, like, they all could be the same, you know, like they literally could. So I, oh yeah. That's nice. And even when you go, like even when we went to, Cornwell went for the, like a long weekend and like physically went to the beach. I was like, seen it now. And I felt like holidays don't have to be on the beach. Do they?

Anita Baldwin 16:22 

And I felt like holidays don't have to be on the beach. Do they? For me, I'd rather not work, but I do. So that's why I wanna combine travel with work, which is so easy to do these days. Isn't it. And just go like you go and live, your balance for a year and then go and live in Switzerland for a year and then go and live in Japan for a year and just like carry on markets. 

Anna Geary 16:42

You know, I'll just follow Lester city, I'll just follow Lester city round, wherever they're probably won't even get into Europe next year but yeah,  I like to go places where you go. 

Graham Brown 16:57 

It's gonna be around the UK then 

Anita Baldwin 16:59

We're in the premiership nine in the dream. 

Anna Geary 17:02 

Exactly. Yeah. So it's not. Yeah, but yeah. All well made sports. I like my mode sport, so they've got Singapore grand free. So that looked, we haven't had that for a few years. Yeah. Oh, they had it, Saudi Arabia then said Abu Dhabi into that one, but they've had it in Singapore a few years ago, so it's good tracks over there. So yeah, but you're right. Being around, people being around the hustle, being around. Things happening and moving and you growing is more important, I think, than just sand on a beach. And when people say

Anita Baldwin 17:30

No, you cant have the best of every world, can you, you can work a little bit, you can holiday a little bit, you can spend time with family and friends. You can go and see new places. You don't have to just have your two week holiday where you're a bit bored and then come back and then you do your 9 to 5 and you know, then you only have two days off of the weekend. You've gotta get everything done and life isn't like that anymore. Thank God. Yeah. Yeah.

Graham Brown 17:50 

It's your own story, right? That's the point.

Anna Geary 17:52 

And for a lot of people, it is still like that though. They still do live like that. 

Anita Baldwin 17:56

Well, that's their choice, isn't it? Life doesn't have to it's you, you choose it though

Anna Geary 18:00

I, I would, I would say it's a choice. Yeah, it is a, 

Graham Brown 18:03

I would say that they dunno any better because they, they only know success as a story which been given to them by media, other people, parents, coworkers.

18:13 Anita Baldwin

Yeah, probably because I was in corporate for years and it's only when I was in my forties and when, and set up on my own. And then we started get savvy club, all this is happening and prevailing thought is why the hell didn't I do this 20 years ago? Yeah. It didn't occur to me, but then life was different 20 years ago. Wasn't it? You know, like the internet was in its infancy and there was no real eCommerce and there was still massive barriers to entry on any kind of business. Whereas now the internet and wifi and all of that have just knocked all those down and actually it's to your advantage to be like a, a small local bank, rather than a big corporate bank. You can, anyone can do anything these days, can't they? 

Graham Brown 18:50

Yeah. But that's the mindset, isn't it? That definitely comes with the technology. Yeah, but it trails it, the technology comes first and then people think actually, what if. 

Anita Baldwin 18:59

Yeah, which I think people do the pandemic as you know, created more entrepreneurs than ever people doing side hustles and like just trying to fill their time, like selling their hobby online and things like that, which is fantastic. Lots of them, you know, not doing it right. And not making any money, but it's a learning curve. Isn't it? So it's exciting. 

Anna Geary 19:18 

And that trap is still there for people there that get, you know, they go to university, they get in debt from that. And then they, they, they feel that they, they should get on the property ladder fast.So they get a mortgage before they really should, and then they get married and then they get a promotion, which means they they they're li how much they trapped salary. Yeah. They're just, they're just trapped and trapped and trapped and trapped. And it's a big deal. And it's hard to get off of that. If you've got a family and you've got responsibility, it is doable, but it's very scary. Isn't it? That's that? I guess. 

Graham Brown 19:45

That's well,you have to. You know, it's a choice, isn't it? Between fear and comfort 

Anna Geary 19:50

I think I have Gary [name], like you got a load of grief because he said selling house then to go rent somewhere smaller and you know, then do that worst case scenario. You can go back and get a job and whatnot. People are like, yeah, you're telling people to sell their house. That's outrageous. And it's like, well, why, you know, if you really wanted to try that thing, Why not, you can always, you know, what, if it works out, what if you go buy that house again in cash?

Graham Brown 20:13 

Those people that are complaining have been told that the house that they have is the biggest investment they've ever made, which is absolute rubbish. Yeah. It's like the house you own is not an investment. 

Anita Baldwin 20:25 

exactly. It's a millstone around your neck. 

Graham Brown 20:26 

Somebody else lives in that you own is an investment, but the house that you own is not an investment, but this is the point is that people have been told these stories and they believe in them. Yeah. And they believe because it benefits everybody. I think the key to anything, I mean, being a storyteller, whether you tell stories or your, you know, you help people tell stories is do it on their terms, is that, you know, people can do that. And that's fine. As long as they know that that's an option. And I think that's the key is that, you know, the key to success really is being able to tell stories on your own terms and whether that is, you know, you want to live in a, a van travel around the west country and surf, or you want to buy a nice house or you want to go and travel. The point is, is that, is that what they want to do? If that's what they want to do, then that's cool. You know, who, who are we to tell somebody that that's never,

Anna Geary 21:15 

but if they're doing it, because they're just the amount of people that I speak to that are married and they, they never men, mostly never, they didn't want to be married. They didn't wanna get married. They just got railroaded into it. Like constantly. It's just unbelievable. Like, so I would say like the percent 

Graham Brown 21:31 

 I can't comment on that if you're talking about men mostly, no, you get into a dangerous area. 

Anna Geary 21:36 

I am in a dangerous area, but because I'm like anti-marriage, and I've always thought it's like the weirdest concept to get married. So when I say that and then people come and go, oh my God. Yeah. Cause I'm married and I never really wanted to be married, but I am because then, well, they're nos. So. Okay. There's tons of week 

Graham Brown 21:53 

Anti wedding. I think we should be anti-wedding, you think? Oh yeah. That's our anti wedding. Because weddings are like the biggest waste 

Anna Geary 22:00

Early on you went to the far east, didn't you? So you've, so far east, I haven't heard it said called that for a while. I'm copying you.  It's like something from that, on that podcast that I listened to the other day, then that's what made me think I'll call it the far east. Cause it was like, we never had a concept about that back when the mystical area. No, but we didn't have any concept of it. Cause we didn't have the internet back then when he went or anything like that. So it's a big, did you just, how did you know to go there? How did you know you? What? 

Graham Brown 22:25

To the far east? Yeah. Yeah.  I dunno. Was fascination known before the

Anna Geary 22:30

it wasn't known as a, you were young, weren't you? I still wasn't like 

Anna Geary 22:37

was a lot younger the nineties. Oh, when was it in the nineties? The early nineties, Bob off on your own to Japan. I think it's quite like 

Graham Brown 22:45 

I did. Yeah. I mean, but the thing is like, back then, like Japan. It was still a thing. You know, I went to Japan and it was, you know, like exciting. It was like Toshiba and TDK tapes and Sony and Walkman's and stuff. I was, I was fascinated by that. And if you were, if you were sort of graduating in the nineties, there really wasn't money alternative. If you wanted to go to somewhere exciting, there wasn't Silicon valley, as it is now, there wasn't any kind of, you know, Europe wasn't really exciting. It was the old world that was falling apart. Yeah. That was the only place to go China isn't what it is. So for me, I was just very intrigued by Japan and what it offered. And,  I just wanted to go, I decided I was gonna go, I was actually told to go by a careers Instructional university

Anita Baldwin 23:31

is very for that's good. Normally they just say, 

Graham Brown 23:33 

oh, just I, well, it was a bit of random. I told them I graduated in an AI degree and they were like, what the hell is an AI degree? Yeah. And then, they didn't have any suggestions for me. So they said go and teach English in Japan. So I went, it was best thing I did. Didn't go and teach AI or anything like that. Obviously. You know, I think at the time it made complete sentence, it was a passport to go and see the world and see different things. And, you know, I recommend it to everybody go and live somewhere else. Once in their life. Just really challenges a lot about what you know about yourself and about reality. You know, what we see as a construct through. 

Anita Baldwin 24:15

no, actually this reality is cuz. It's amazing. What, how we think is the norm just cause that's how we've always been raised and that's what we've seen around us. And it's only when you get out of that, that you go, oh actually it can be whatever I want it to be. And it is absolutely very freeing. 

Graham Brown 24:28

I imagine it, it, it, well, it, in a way it's freeing, but quite scary, like take maps. I see Anna behind your head. There's a world map. It's a great example. When I went to Japan, I remember walking into my manager's office. And this is in Tokyo and this is the nineties. So it was, you know, huge city, 30 million people. I wasn't used to this very, very high tech walked into the office. They had an old map on the wall, an old meaning it was a modern version, but it was like sort of faded. And I looked at it and I was sitting, waiting for my manager to meet her for the first time. And I thought something's weird about this map. And it was the first time I ever saw a map where Japan was in the middle. Oh yeah. Cool. Tokyo was in the middle. And ever since then, I've sort of looked at maps and here's the thing about maps. Maps are stories. So they're not actual physical representations of the world. For example, if you look at the map, the MCAT projection, which is behind you there, Anna, which is like the standard, it's kind of got, you know, America on the left and Europe on the right. We think that that's what the world looks like. But you know, one of the things that people don't realize is actually that there is also the opposite map to that. There's a one called the south up map. I don't know if you've ever seen this thing. It's crazy. I know. So imagine turning a map upside down. Yeah. And you've got, so you've got Australia at the top and you've got like Europe at the bottom and you look at that and you think, yeah, that's really screwed up. And then people say, well, you know, that can't be right because it's upside down. But in space, there is no up and no down. Yeah, that's correct as well. And you say, so what, why, why is it like that? Well, it's a story, isn't it we've told for hundreds, maybe thousands of years that the people on this part were more important than the people on that part. And then people say, well, no, no, no. It's because the compass points north, a compass doesn't point north, a compass points north and south at the same time. It's just that somebody decided to paint the N red. 

Anita Baldwin 26:30

Well, I imagine it's because we started mapping the world first. So we just drew it in a way that suited us and put us smack bang in the center.

Graham Brown 26:36 

Yeah, exactly. That's the point, isn't it? Yeah. That, you know, we were the ones that colonized the world first

Anita Baldwin 26:42

Traveling around.Yeah. Which must have been really scary. Wasn't it? Back in the day, when they genuinely thought the earth was flat and they might just fall off it, some people still do

Anna Geary 26:53

So what are the big plans for you then? Is this Singapore forever or not? 

Graham Brown 26:58

Well, forever is a long time. I know. Yeah. We're here for the foreseeable future and obviously my son still has to get through school. So there's all that to do but who knows? So he's 15. Oh, he's doing his GCSEs. Yeah. All of that.

Anna Geary 27:14

Same as our daughters are that age. Yeah. 

Graham Brown 27:17

Yeah. I'm going through all that mocks and those kinds of things. So who knows? I dunno. I mean, there's no point, you know, I, for example, the option there, I said to him, look, if you don't wanna go to university. That's absolutely fine with me. I'll give you half the money it would've cost me to send you to university. You go and start a business and travel the world. Yeah. So that will free us up off the hook, which is great. And then who knows? I mean, I would love to think that once we built this podcast business and sell it, that we have some options and who knows, you know, I can't say never. Ever. 

Anna Geary 27:43

Would you ever move back to the UK? Do you think?

Graham Brown 27:45

I can't say never. Ever.

Anna Geary 27:47

Which bit were you from?

Graham Brown 27:54

Portsmouth. That's another part. I don't think I moved back there. I had to move back, but who, you know, it's like, there's so much choice. It's, you know, I can remember being quite young in Portsmouth at college and being in the pub and somebody said, well, why do you ever want leave [inaudible]? As they called it. It's got everything, I'm like 

Anita Baldwin 28:16

spoken by someone that's never left and yeah. 

Anna Geary 28:19 

Yeah. Maybe they went over all the way

Graham Brown 28:21 

Well, either way it was like a different continent of these guys, right? 

Anita Baldwin 28:25 

Two questions, we always ask our guests, The first one is to recommend a book. So something that has helped you in business development, something that you would recommend, 

Graham Brown 28:39 

 I'm currently reading the Toyota way. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, I've read the Toyota way and I've also read the Toyota way to lean leadership. I'm a big fan of Toyota and the Toyota production system. Obviously the whole startup movement has really inherited a lot of its thinking from Toyota. And, you know, the most profitable water manufacturer of all time and the highest, the most reliable cars of all time. Yeah, I was gonna say they're reliable. point about really, it's not about building cars, it's about solving problems. So the production system was used in Starbucks. For example, when you think about, well, that's not factory, but the whole point was that, how can you standardize process to free your people up to focus on what matters? So you think about a Starbucks barista standardizing the process of making a latte, everything from, you know, like the, the size of the jars to how they pull this stuff in to, you know, the, the timing of stuff such that he, or she can talk to the customers, which is what matters. Right. And think about that in your agency, that what people do, and this is the problem that most small businesses have is that they don't standardize the process so much of what they do is Inferred knowledge stored in their head. They can never grow. They can never scale up the business and they can never free themselves up from the business because it's always dependent on them and using the Toyota production system, for example, just ideas from out. Just parts of it. Yeah. It's a slow process. Small incremental gains every single day. Like asking how do you solve problems? I think it's a revelation. It can work for a small agency. It can work for a billion dollar auto giant. So. It's a great book. It'll give you ideas, even if you are nothing to do with auto. Yeah, I think there

Anna Geary 30:36

That's what we, that's what we love about this podcast. Cause we always ask that question of every guest and obviously that cuz if you, if you didn't  interrupt your patterns of what you are watching, listening to reading, whatever you end up, just getting pulled down the same sort of line don't you and they say, oh, you like, you enjoyed that. So you were like this. So then if you, if somebody random, somebody told us to read, I can't remember what the book was called, but I was thinking it doesn't sound like my kind of thing. So I purposely listened to it because of that. And then I actually really enjoyed it. So it's good to get different recommendations that open your brain upin a different way. So we always give away a copy of the book that's recommended to our listener if they tag us and you know, they go into a competition, so that one will be up for grabs. And another awesome question that we ask you is we are that get savvy club. So what makes you savvy? We can take that anyway you want 

Graham Brown 31:26 

really, I don't know a lot. I have to confess and I'm always, you know, I'm, I'm a very much off the mind that there's a real joy in being in a. and putting yourself at the bottom of the curve and not knowing. Yeah. And not, and saying, you know, one thing I've learned in my ripe old age is learning to say, I don't know, so I'm not savvy. I like to think, I don't know things. And I would like to learn and put myself consciously into those environments. I will give you an example. If you allow me just to indulge you with a very small story, my dad was in the Marines. And he had, you know, those Marines have this very strange thing where they spin their rifles around when they're practicing. It's kind of all that sort of showmanship. And, I wasn't, I wasn't alive, sort of alive, I wasn't born when he was in the Marines. So I only saw kind of like the photos and stuff. And I said, dad, what, That's really dumb. Why do they do that? And he said, well, it's so they can practice catching the rifle if they ever drop it. If you think about it, it's like putting yourself in constant positions of failure so that when you do fail, you can catch it. And that's what I think unknowing is, or not knowing is deliberately putting yourself in an environment where you don't know. So it's that when you do face challenges, you are equipped to deal with stuff. And that means, for example, going and living in a different country or starting something new or learning something new, or like Anna says, he's like reading that book because it's gonna challenge you. Right. That's what I see the beauty of not knowing. So maybe it's not the answer kind of you're expecting or wanted.

Anita Baldwin 33:12

It's a good, so I suppose it's like putting yourself in situations where you feel out of your death so that you never are in a situation where you're daunted by feeling out of your death because you know, 

Anna Geary 33:22

you're become convincible. Yeah. And I think that's why some people have really struggled the family. Yeah. And I think that's why so many people have struggled with like the lockdown and the pandemic and whatever it's, because they've never been out of their comfort zone before. Consciously or not conscious or whatever, they've just avoided it. And now therefore they've massively struggled. Whereas if you always putting yourself in different situations or you just know that you just kind of get a trust within yourself, that things are gonna work out no matter what kind of happens. And then you you're not as fit or, or you feel, although it doesn't matter if it 

Anita Baldwin 33:52 

doesn't work out, you'll survive and move on. It's not fatal. 

Graham Brown 33:56 

Yeah, yeah. Between us and where we need to get to is fear. Yeah. In everything that we want to do. And that's what makes us comfortable and keeps us back. You know, the ability to break through that and realize that's not gonna kill you in the process. It's one of those things. Can I recommend another book? Is that allowed? Yeah. There is a 

Anna Geary 34:16

Great cost though. Graham, we're gonna have to give away two now but fine. 

Graham Brown 34:17

I'm sorry. Well, you can do an ARB, but there's a great book called, Rejection therapy. I think that's not the name of it, but it's a hundred days of rejection and it's by an American Chinese guy. And it is very funny and basically what he does is he, he sort of grew up in this very traditional academic family that had high expectations of him and he failed. And then he said, I'm gonna deal with that. So he went through a hundred days of rejection and like day one, he's documented this all on YouTube. Go and watch on YouTube. If you don't wanna read the book like day one, who would walk into dunking donuts and say, can I have three donuts rather than two and pay for two? And they would say, no, get out, but he dealt with it. And then like the next day, he'd walk up to somebody he'd say, can I have your phone number? And then he would say, my third day, he'd walk up to somebody, knock on their door and say, I've got a flower. Can I plant it in your garden? And they just become more and more outrageous, but he learned through this whole a hundred days, is that the more he put himself deliberately, he called it rejection therapy in these positions of rejection, the stronger he grew. It's a great book. 

Anna Geary 35:23

Where can people find out more about you?

Graham Brown 35:24

Go to my website - It's Graham brown, grahamdbrown, Graham brown is the wallpaper website. So, you can go in there. My videos are there, my podcasts are there. 

Speaker 35:33 

If you are enjoying marketing made easy the podcast from get savvy club, use your podcast app to rate, review and subscribe.

Anita Baldwin 35:43

Fabulous. Interesting guy. And you know what I loved, I've written down on my notes here. I've just noticed when he was talking about that rejection therapy and that project where the person said, I want to get rejected every day for, was it a hundred days of rejection or something and a hundred days of retail, you reject therapy or something. Interesting. You know, just to kind of document how you 

Anna Geary 36:04 

I've already spoke to my daughter about it cuz we record this the other day and then we're doing like this, top and tail bit of it afterwards. And uh, actually I did say I was told her about it. She said, oh yeah, send that to my mom. And I said, some of them are really easy. Serena, we, we would do them anyway. Like they're not hard to us, but then others put you out via comfort zone. Like, you know, going up to someone, asking them for the number that would not phase us at all. You know? So what if to say no, but going in a shop say.

Anita Baldwin 36:25

Can I have three hot chocolates. I didn't wanna pay for two. I'd find that if someone said that to me, I'd be like, get outta here. 

Anna Geary 36:31

No. And also not so much that it's like, your it's quite awkward then for the person that works there, because they might not have, you know, you don't want them to have their job in jeopardy because you've taught them into giving you two products for the price.

Anita Baldwin 36:44

Something coly say yes to and that if you're just a worker in Starbucks, you're not allowed to give away my fees. Are you ?

Anna Geary 36:51

Probably No, my look I'd get them to give me it. And then they get sacked. So I don't want that. No, don't want that on me, but yeah, maybe you need to go to an independent then and make sure that you're speaking to the manager. I dunno, overthinking that, I guess. But yeah, of, I tried to look through the book. I couldn't find the book, but I found like the YouTube.

Anita Baldwin 37:10 

I've a guide website, you know, like my husband buys books all the time. It's like, yeah, just need to get time to read them. He must have 300 books on his, in his pile of, and I've never really see him read. He reckon he wants to just, you know, win the lottery and sit on an island reading, which he's got, he's got the books to do it, but I swear to God I've seen this somewhere, so I'm gonna have a look. Yeah, but there's books everywhere. 

Anna Geary 37:30 

Maybe isn't in his, in his collection, but he shouldn't wait until he has won the lottery. And then start reading. Tell it's not that, I don't think that's a very good strategy. 

Anita Baldwin 37:39

 no, do you not either.

Anna Geary 37:40

I think we might be better. That's our word for 2022? Isn't it like implementation, implementation? Yeah, we just start, you must just start like, implementing, like reading them books. Just a little, just like half an to like Warren, is it Warren buffet? I think that's what he spends most of his time doing reading, reading, reading. 

Anita Baldwin 37:59

I spend most of my time trying to force my kids to read, which is silly because they don't realize what a gift that is. 

Anna Geary 38:03 

Sit there for an hour. Sit there for half an hour, sit there for an hour and read. We'd love to get the chance to do that.

Anita Baldwin 38:09

I even have to pay them, someone quit to read one book, which I've offered them every month, I'd bite the hand off. Yeah, I dunno. They're born these kids' living in Singapore and the dinner's not done. But anyway, we've got now much anticipated regular feature. We now do listeners called question of the week. How's the jingle coming along, Anna. 

Anna Geary 38:26 

Yeah, it's doing well. Yeah. I actually forgot to ask her to do it. 

Anita Baldwin 38:29

So this question. We get asked all the time, all the time. And this is for people who, right at the start of their social media journey, really, or they're giving it a go, but it's not working for them because it will never work for you in this situation. And the question is, what do I do on social media if I've got more than one business, 

Anna Geary 38:51 

It's a tough question then, because at one point before we worked together and we created, get savvy club, I, there was a point when I was doing LinkedIn courses for my clients cause I had a recruit and then I was doing, I was, had a recruitment business. So it's for my clients in the recruitment that I was doing, the LinkedIn courses for, I had recruitment business. I was doing a bit of network marketing and I was also doing property sourcing. So. How on earth do you show up and on social media with all that? So I did show up and I was somebody that could easily show up. I showed up every single day, pretty much I was, everybody got to know and like, trust me, but there was a missing piece, missing element and people didn't really understand how they could buy from me. And the reason behind that I believe is because there's just too many things going on, that they couldn't, if somebody said, oh, do you know Anna Geary? They'd probably say, yeah, [inaudible] And that would be plus made you offend.

Anita Baldwin 39:42

Like you can't, you can't stick to any particular thing. So, if I give you money on one being, get bored of it, you'll move on to one of the other things you're doing and I'll be like, oh, okay.

Anna Geary 39:53

Yeah. In every single area that I worked in that, when I did all those four things. Yeah. I was alright. All of them, but I did. I wasn't, I didn't Excel in any of them. There was, you could find somebody better than me in the network marketing business. You could find somebody better than me at the LinkedIn courses at that time, not now ops, you could find somebody better than me at recruitment. You could find somebody better than me at property tools cause they were all in on that thing. So although maybe you may be competent and you may love doing lots of different things. People really don't care about that. They, and if you want them to buy from you and access you and understand what you do and you know, actually be profitable. You are gonna have to not wear two hats. Because people find it almost like a badge of honor. I wear two hats. Yeah, but that's confusing. 

Anita Baldwin 40:34

But also we don't say you have to change your business. You've just gotta change your marketing. So it's absolutely fine to do two things or three things or however many things you wanna do, but you cannot make people understand. All of those things and work out, which one is for them and why it will benefit them. That's just too much. 

Anna Geary 40:50

Well, and don't go around. Cause we get, ask this as well. Don't we don't go around thinking you can be Mrs. Mop cleaner, Mrs. Mop seller on Instagram and then Corporate HR director on LinkedIn. Like you can't have two, be two different things. You can't choose how  someone will decide  to find out about yeah. If someone goes to check, check you out and think, oh, okay. I follow them on LinkedIn. I'm just gonna see if they have an Instagram, then you're doing something completely different. They're just going to be confused. And when we're confused, we don't buy.

Anita Baldwin 41:18

So, so if you think about big business, you think Coca-Cola. Or used to do, I haven't seen one in ages, a diet Coke advert, just for diet Coke. You know, they've got shit load products. Yeah. Not to mention they do. They've got weird diets now, but then they've also got all the other soft drinks they do. They don't just put a big menu on, of all the different drinks they do because they're paying for that advert. They might as well shove it in and you never know who's watching, they are specific about who they're targeting and what, the things that are gonna. That person is, and then they just do an advert for that. So, you know, if they are spending all that money on researching the top people to help them with marketing and they don't even like go, oh, by the way, I also do this. And I also do that. And you know, all of that kind of thing, then we definitely shouldn't be doing it. 

Anna Geary 42:01

The most recent diet Coke advert I saw it was weird. It was like a man on a playground, I think like, just rocking backwards and forwards. And it was like Diet Coke. 

Anita Baldwin 42:11

What, odd. The other thing is, and I know it's a bit harsh and Anna says I'm harsh thinking it, but if I think it, other people will think it when I used to do networking, when we used to be able to go into rooms with other people and hear about their businesses, if someone stood up and said, and I'll use this as an example cause I did want to hear this, that someone said I'm a social media manager and I also do hand painted wooden letters for nurseries and things like that. And I immediately think we can't be very good at either then can you, if you've got to do two things to make money, so one of those things surely has to be a hobby or a sideline or something that you just do and the one that you have, the one that you want to grow because you think that's where the money is and that's the one you enjoy doing the most, then that's the thing to put your time and energy in, on social media and become known for you. Can't become known for lots of different things. And if you think about it, like lots of people will say to me, oh, well, look at Richard Branson. He's got lots of different companies that he's known for, but that's why he's pinned his brand on himself. So Richard Branson is known as a personality. He didn't start like that a quirky person in himself. And then he owns all these businesses, but they all do their own individual marketing as well, based on their target markets. So. 

Anna Geary 43:19 

yeah, cause we spoke to an interesting guy with the, earlier this week and hearing it has I think, seven, eight different businesses, but he's not the face of that, that cause that'll get massively confusing. There's marketing faces for each individual one. And 

Anita Baldwin 43:33

I think that's probably what you did at social media to become well known. People knew you. And like you say, for being a lesser city fan. Knowing you as a person, rather than I think probably some people couldn't have described what it is you did, because they didn't know. They just know that they saw you popping up and being friendly and, and like knowing lots of people and that kind of thing all the time. 

Anna Geary 43:53 

I've been well, how long have you had to get Savvy club now? Two and a half years. Something like that? So it's taken that long to like, and I actually got a call from somebody about helping them with property the day because they'd seen it on something and I have like, somebody else that I send them over to now, I've had a nice chat with him. Actually, he's got an electrical business. He needs help with social media or on, so we can help him with that. But, yeah, so it's, it's, it's worth going all in on one thing for your marketing. So you get known for that. 

Anita Baldwin 44:18 

So it's not always the answer people like to hear, but it's the best answer for, for you to get  known.

Anna Geary 44:23 

It's the one that's gonna work. So that's gotta be more important than it's just, you know, we're not, we're not gonna sugarcoat anything for you is, it is what it is. You gotta just choose one and go on in, but don't forget, like I need to said, You can do the other things as well, but just lead with your marketing, but with one thing. Yeah. 

Anita Baldwin 44:40

So if you have a question, send it to us on social media or by email on info@getsavvy If you want to win the Toyota way, that Graham talked about, then screenshots the episode and put it on social media and tags in it and we'll pick someone out of a hat and then you can win a copy of the book, but I will read it first.

Anna Geary 44:59

Yeah, I'm gonna read. That's way away and the hundred rejections things, hundred days of rejection therapy. So I think if you get, if you do that, I might, yeah. I might look at doing a similar thing, maybe like. Only like a 30 day rejection challenge or something, just to see how it goes and yeah, things we wanna do in our business say, and then just go out and get those nos fast. Help us learn how we get the guesses moving forward. But cool. We'll see you on the next one, Thursday for the whatever that's on.

Anita Baldwin 45:29 

See you later. Bye 

Speaker 45:32 

That was Marketing made easy from Get Savvy Club. If you enjoyed it, connect with us on social media, just search Get savvy club.


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About The Author Graham Brown

Graham Brown is the founder of Podcast Guesting Pro. Graham is a published author on the subject of Digital Communication and Personal Branding (Amazon titles include "Brand Love: How to Build a Brand Worth Talking About" and "Mobile Youth: Voices of the Connected Generation). He has produced, project managed and guested on over 2,000 podcast episodes.