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Podcast Guesting Pro founder Graham Brown joins podcast host Grant McGaugh on "Follow The Brand" podcast to discuss finding your authentic voice. The following is a transcript of their conversation. For more tips on podcast guesting success, go to our podcast guesting resources.

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Grant McGaugh 00:00 

Welcome to another episode of Follow The Brand. I am your host Grant McGaw, CEO of five star BDM, a five star personal branding and business development company. I want to take you on a journey that takes another deep dive into the world of post and branding and business development using compel. Personal story, business conversations and tips to improve your personal brand. By listening to the ‘follow the brand’ podcast series, you will be able to differentiate yourself from the competition and allow you to build trust with prospective clients and employers. You never get a second chance to make a first impression, make it one that will set you apart. Build trust and reflect who you are developing. Your five star person brand is a great way to demonstrate your skills and knowledge. If you have any questions for me or my guest, please email me at grant.mcgaugh, spelled MC. G A U G H Now let's begin with our next five star episode on Follow the brand.

Grant McGaugh 01:25

When you are an entrepreneur, you are driven by the challenge and entry of the business journey and financial empowerment. Your reward is the excitement you gain from a genuine feeling of adventure. Graham Brown says his journey started in telecom and communication which led him to become one of the world's most recognized podcasters. Brown started podcasting as a hobby to reach out to entrepreneurial nomads like himself, which led him to Southeast Asia to meet billionaire Tony Fernandez of air Asia, to start building a podcast business asset, the leverage the human connection. Graham believes leadership is storytelling. Graham helps corporate leaders find their authentic voice through creating their own podcast and speaking on other creative and interesting podcasts. Graham has posted, guested on and produced over 2000 podcast episodes since 2014, a graduate of artificial intelligence and cognitive psychology from Sussex University and entrepreneurship, Harvard business school, Brown is the founder of Pitch Media Asia, Asia's largest podcast media house, and he is best known for being the show host of Asia tech podcast. The podcast show and pitch deck Asia shows, which spans 500 episodes across 15 Asian markets. Graham is also the founder of Pikkal and company, an award-winning podcast agency. An AI powered data driven B2B podcast agency in Singapore. He is also a published author on the subject of the digital transformation of communication works, including the human communication playbook, the mobile youth, voices of the connected generation documenting the rise of mobile culture in the early two thousands in Japan, China, Africa and India, and also brand love how to build a brand worth talking about. Brown share's lessons learned from helping some of the world's leading organizations, such as McKinsey, UTI, Julius Baer, UPS, and the Singapore government find their voice with podcasts. As an entrepreneur Brown founded mobile youth in 2000, the world's first youth focused telecoms company and built it into a multinational company spanning 45 countries. Here's a period on CNN, CNBC, BBC TV, financial times, the guardian and wall street journal, a prolific public speaker, he has spoken on topics ranging from marketing innovation to early stage startup investment. Throughout his exciting career, he has helped shape the marketing strategy of clients such as UNICEF, MTV, The European commission, Disney and monster energy drinks, and even participated in the rollout of the world's first consumer mobile internet services on NTT Docomo's IMO in Japan during the 1990s, a student of the world, Brown has lived in countries, such as New Zealand, the UK, Spain, Japan, and Singapore, and speaks fluent Japanese, Spanish, and English. Let's welcome Graham Brown to the Follow the brand podcast where we are building a five star brand that you can follow.

Grant McGaugh 05:20

Hello everyone and welcome to another great episode of follow the brand. You know, we're international. I don't know if a lot of people knew that, but we are international. We started out here. In little Miami, Florida and we went throughout the nation and we have been reaching across the pond. We just had to reach gas from all the way over in Europe. Now we're gonna go way out to the into the Pacific. And you know, these, these islands, I think they're called the Philippines or in Singapore or something like they're out in a no man's land for me but we're gonna have Graham Brown come to the show. He has been an historical podcaster. I call him the pioneer in my world. He's been doing this for a very, very long time. He teaches others how to do it at a high level. And he's, you know, he is been able to attract a lot of corporate sponsors and people that are large corporations that are looking to get into the podcasting realm and do it at a level that they can truly share some knowledge, share some intelligence, and bring whatever they're bringing to the table. They're brand to the table at a much higher level. So without further ado, let's hear from Mr. Graham Brown. 

Graham Brown 06:31

Hey Grant. It's great to be here. Yeah. Greetings from Singapore. Sorry. yeah, you got the Pacific part, right. We are on the other side of the world. So follow the brand folks is going international. We've got global coverage. Follow this coverage now.

Grant McGaugh 06:47

Now you have an interesting story. I know you've been there a few years and you know, you've tracked over there. Now. I wanna know. How did you get to the, I mean, of all the places Singapore. I know. It's the same area. It's generally, well, let's talk about that. You know, what, what is it like a few miles, a hundred miles, or is it site distance? How far is Singapore from the Philippines? 

Graham Brown 07:13 

So it's probably like, from yours to Chicago or maybe further, little bit out. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. But it's a big place. it's far, you gotta cross the ocean as well. So it's but we're all in Asia. I mean, we're all in Southeast Asia, correct? Correct. That's the region. I mean, Asia itself, there's half the world's population here. 

Grant McGaugh 07:36

It's more than afterward if I remember right. I mean, there, there are a ton of people, uh, that live in that part of the world and it just really expands your awareness. So tell us, where do you get, where do you hail from? Where where'd you get your start.

Graham Brown 07:48 

I'm from England. Yeah, I was born in England many years ago but I haven't lived there for almost 10 years and about nine, 2012. I had a telecoms business, which, it came sort of the end of its life time. So it was a successful telecoms business involved in communications, communications, marketing, and helping large telcos in their communications strategy. And then in 2012, I sold everything. My share in the business, sold all. You know, worldly goods, so clothes, you know, the car, the house, everything. And then myself, my wife and my six year old son, we went traveling. So we decided we'd go and see a bit of the world, cuz I didn't want to start another business. And I didn't really have the appetite to get back into it. So we went, we packed everything into three suitcases. Literally three suitcases and then bought a one way ticket to New Zealand and traveled the world for six years. So that was the story. So we went everywhere, you know, living on islands, living, you know, out in remote places on, got my son into school in some of the local schools sold him in, you know, these sort of Hilltop schools in Spain, like got him into one of those, you know, like learned from the locals, lived with the locals. Yeah. And had a bit of an adventure. So that's the story. And then ended up in Asia, Japan, my wife's Japanese. And then we moved to Singapore three years ago. So that's the story. It's not a straight line. Oh, man. Not, not at all. Most interesting story. 

Grant McGaugh 09:29 

It sounds very intriguing. I mean, I just, I'm picturing you, you know, with a backpack and you're going through Europe and then you're getting on these little boats, right. With these little, your wife and your town, and you're going to these little islands and you just you're negotiating 

Graham Brown 09:43 

for another captain for payment, you know, like everything's haggling of bargaining and

Grant McGaugh 09:50

So now that's a lot. Now we have some more commonality in our background. I have a large telecom history. I worked for Lucinova technologies for like 10 years. So I got my start, you know,  the IT world from a communications standpoint. So I now understand telco at a pretty high level, whether it's at a carrier world or a PEX road or a VO world and, and all that type of thing. And now here we are talking about podcasting, which is a former. communication, right. So now absolutely getting segue into that story. Like, so did you have to get on the mike to talk your way through, to get on a passage to another country? I mean 

Graham Brown 10:30

that on an old steamer ship. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think the telecoms background really, you know, is interesting as well. You, we talked about this before, didn't we? Grant is that, you know, in the old days of telecoms, you know, a lot of the telcos, you know, came from different areas. They were tech companies or even old, you know, the old sort of network exchanges, like the bells and in different countries, who'd have nationalized post offices who became telcos. So they weren't really consumer focused these companies. They didn't really understand this idea of what do people really want. So they didn't know how to communicate with their customers. And what happened was this late nineties, effectively telco exploded. And they were in a situation where they were expanding rapidly, but they didn't know anything about their customers or how to market to them. So you had that situation where even if they didn't bother understanding their customers, they would still be making a lot of money. So a very strange situation in telco at that time that these companies were extremely successful but really didn't understand what the pain points of their customers were. And therefore sort of around about the late nineties, when the competition started to increase and, you know, the market started to plateau, they then started investing in, okay, we actually need to do our marketing and branding a little bit better. And that's where I got involved in the communication side, helping them with that. Before that I'd lived in the nineties, I'd lived in Japan for a while and was teaching English out in Japan, in the mid nineties. And I'd seen like young Japanese teenagers in the mid nineties take up and adopt these phones and use Text messaging before it was even charged by the telecom operators. So in those, if you remember in the old days, the first text messages were actually only ever used by engineers. Yeah. Yeah. They used to send these network text messages, like test ignore, you know, you get on your phone. What was that? And then young people started realizing that they could send messages to each other without paying cuz at the time it was like a buck a minute or 50 cents a minute. So they could send these messages on their phone, like these crypted messages and bypass the payments and that's how text messaging started. And it started in the mid nineties, in Japan and spread to the rest of the world. I saw that happen. And then I went to these telcos and in moving back to London at the time in the late nineties, you know, knocking on their doors and saying, Hey, I've seen the future of your brand and your marketing strategy. They told me we don't do kids. We're not interested. This was 1998. Yeah. None of them were interested in teenagers. And I said, this is the future teenagers mobile and cell phones. No, not interested, but I have to say that the first company, and this gives me hope, this sort of brings me to podcasting. The first company in it was about Christmas 98, 99. I think. I can't remember. There was myself and my business partner. We got a phone call. We weren't making any sales Grant. You know, we were like, It was like Christmas, Carol. I don't know if we're gonna be able to Tiny Tim. I dunno if we're gonna be able to feed the family at Christmas, we got a phone call at our office and there were only two of us. So hardly an office. It was a table in a basement. I got a phone call, company said, we seen your report that you're selling about young people and mobile phones. We really like it. We wanna buy it. We're not a mobile phone company, but can we have it. So absolutely need the money and it turned out to be MTV. Oh wow. And they, yeah, in 98 they were a big thing. Remember? Yeah, yeah, for sure. Different today, but they became our first and best client for many, many years. And that really got me into the world of communications and how to connect with people across age, culture, geographical divides. I really learned all of that. You know, working with companies like MTV and later with Red Bull, Disney, you know, some great brands understanding how they do communications. And that really set me up later on in life to get into podcasting because the challenges are very similar. It's how do we connect, you know, across the pond, like, you know, different time zones, like different backgrounds, everything, and that's really what people are digging into now

Grant McGaugh 15:00 

Oh, without question, as far as the collapsing of time and space, right. I think, through COVID, you know, what, what did people would say? What, what did you learn? Well, you learned that you can communicate, you know, internationally a lot easier than you could before, and that people are a lot closer together than we appear to be. Right. And through communications through that type of technology, you can connect real time with just anybody in the world. It's a matter of just setting up a shared protocol, right? I got to get, get to technical. But now, so now you go through this MTV, you, you, you you're saved, right. You know, you have the big crisp, thank you, right. Screws you no longer at your grill and, and this is a great story. This is a wonderful story. So now you get your sea legs right now. You're you're, you're going you, you said earlier, you got the company built, then you sold it. Then you went on this journey.You've been six years. I mean, so help us understand where, how did, how did that intersect with this podcasting world? 

Graham Brown 16:09 

Well, something funny happened whilst I was enjoying life, you know, as a location independent nomad with the family, traveling around the world, I actually got quite lonely. And I think if you're an entrepreneur Grant and I'm sure your audience will understand is that we are wired a little bit differently. You know, we are driven by the challenge that when something is a challenge that actually, is the reason why you want to do it. If it's easy, it's like, nah, but if it's a challenge, it's like, yeah, I want to do that just for the sake of doing it. Yeah. And that's something that I don't think people who aren't wired like that don't understand so much, you know, there is something exciting and rewarding about adversity and maybe even suffering. You know, going through that process and becoming a better person on the other side of it. So when you are lying on tropical islands and you're seeing these sort of Instagram sunsets, which I was living that lifestyle for a while, it actually gets quite boring and you start the chatter in your head starts taking over. It's like, okay, I need some resistance. I need something to do. I need to create something. I need to reach out to people. So around about 2014, in a couple of years into the journey, I was living off the west coast of Africa in the Canary islands, which are technically part of Spain, but they're geographically part of Africa. So they're volcanoes like a mini Hawaii. Yeah, 200 kilometers off the west coast, living out there, you know, pour into that connection, just living a really sort of sedentary lifestyle, but then, you know, thinking actually, how do I reach out to people like me? How do I connect with people like me, who, and there were a lot of people living this kind of lifestyle, whether it was in Asia or in the Canary islands. So I decided to start a podcast. And at the time 2014 people hadn't really heard of it. You know, of course it was a lot harder to do then, but it was easy to get hold of people, you know? So I started a podcast interviewing nomads and people living this lifestyle all in different time zones and it was really a hobby. And then that grew and you know, it kind of waxed and waned.

Grant McGaugh 18:31 

I'm curious, what was the name of the show? I mean, what, what did you call it? 

Graham Brown 18:35

Well, there, it was, it had two, there were two versions, two series of it. The first one was called barefoot journal. so, yeah, it was sort of the journal of being a barefoot entrepreneur. Yeah. Even though I wasn't really, I mean, I had given up my business, but I was still an entrepreneur, you know, I was still looking for an opportunity in the next thing. So that was the first part. And then it, later on, it became more professionalized and became founder FM. So I started cuz in 2016, you know, the startup scene was really hot globally. Right. So I was talking to startup founders and when we moved to Asia in 2016, 2017, I started a podcast called Asia tech podcast, cuz at the time the Asian tech scene was really hot. You know, it was, it was boring learning from America the valley, you know, China was growing very fast. You know, these Southeast Asian economies were getting a lot of venture capital funding. I was living in Japan, so I started Asia tech podcasts, and I did 503 episodes of that. Nice, nice. It was like this, you know, reaching out to people like Grant and saying, Hey, tell me about your startup. Just getting all their stories. Yeah. And then that just grew, it just took its own life. And then, you know, just really grew fast. And the, the audience grew, the people wanted to be on the podcast and then people saying, Hey, I need to do that myself. How do I do that? And then this thought got into me Grant when I was sort of semi-retired, you know, living in Japan that actually I could make a business outta this. And it was almost like it had called me and said, you know, I'm not gonna let you get away from being an entrepreneur. Here's an opportunity for you. And you gotta grasp it. And I did. And at the time 2018, it was still early, early in the podcast story, but there were people who were interested in it commercially, and that's how it started. 

Grant McGaugh 20:36 

Man, that's a great story. I know people that were involved like 2014, 2015, very small. Right. You always think like this is a one man radio show. Right. You know, kinda just doing their thing and late night having a guest on like Johnny Carson, we'll just do some late night podcasting. Right? Know, bring somebody on, you know, get some entrepreneur out there. They can't sleep at night. Like, yeah, jump on there. I'll go ahead and, you know, tell my story. That is wonderful. And because now you've created a whole business out of this teaching other people how to create a successful podcast and to monetize. Now we are in our art, financial empowerment series right now. So how, how did that happen? Tell us that story. 

Graham Brown 21:28

Well, I'd moved from Japan to Singapore. So the family, we, we upstick and moved to Singapore because I wanted to start a business. So 2018, we came here, set up a podcast studio. There wasn't a lot of demand I have to confess in the early days, people were in 2018 saying to us, why podcast? Why not? YouTube? You know, that was very much how people thought about it because you know, this was pre Spotify, pre I mean, Spotify existed, but it wasn't the entity that it is now. Spotify was music really then, you know, pre all the investments we've seen going to podcasting and the celebs and the big hit. You know, shows like Serial and so on. So in 2018 it was early days and we were grafting, you know, looking around for leads deals. And there wasn't a lot. And in my sort of Podcast studio, I would invite people in to continue that Asia tech podcast vibe. And so I have a good connection. So I, you know, this is the point putting out to the audience. It's still a fantastic way to network with people, sit with somebody and have that conversation. One of the guests that came said, you know, I'll take you to some Singaporean locale food hangout. So we went there and the place we went is a, for anybody that knows Singapore, it's called Newton Hawker center. It's like this large area where you can sit and eat. So we were sitting there having our dinner. It was packed. There was no seats left and this couple came over and we were chatting about the podcast at the time this couple came over and said, can we sit there? These were the last two seats in the house. So he said, yeah, sure. Moved our bags. And they went off, they came back and the guy started talking to us and, you know, we got chatting about podcasting, got chatting about what we were doing. He asked my friend what he did. My friend was working medical devices. He asked me about my podcast studio and like, you know, why are you trying to help companies start podcasts in Asia? Then I asked him, you know, what do you do? And he said, I own an airline. And he was sitting right next to me. Yeah, this guy. So, the guy in question is called Tony Fernandez. He's sort of a Maverick billionaire businessman, sort of Mark Cuban level in the US maybe, or, you know, little bit of a controversial character. 

Grant McGaugh 24:02 

So you're telling me, you went to lunch with him, said, yeah. And had a bite. Did you know he was this? I probably love that

Graham Brown 24:10 

He laughed. I mean, he's the kind of guy that, you know, he will hang out with just average people, normal people on their daily lives just cuz he enjoys doing. You know, he's not sort of airs and graces. Yeah. So anyway, we got talking and, you know, the hour is up, his private jet was waiting at the airport. So his, you know, his man came and said, okay, we've gotta go, gotta get the cab. And, I turned around to him. I thought, well, what am I gonna do? I've gotta pitch this guy. This is the last time I'm ever gonna see him. And he has not just an airline. He has a whole media empire. He has record labels, everything. This is my opportunity. And I said, turned to him and said, Tony, I wanna do a podcast with you. That was my pitch. And I, yeah, I could have gone in and said, yeah, I want you to be my client, but I knew everybody was gonna be saying that, or I want you to invest in my company. I knew he would have thousands of people, but I said, I want to do a podcast with you. And he sort of, you know, breathed in and he said, sure, let's do it. And he gave me his WhatsApp number. Right? Yeah. He said, let's make it happen. And that was it. And I thought, Oh, that's the one. That's how you do it. It's such a good, such a powerful biz dev tool. I've got an hour with this guy now to do a podcast and really go deep with him. So few, few months later, it took a while to sort out, you know, we flew into his, into the airport. So they're based outta Kuala Lumpur in Malaysia, which is sort, it's the center point in the whole of Asia for logistics and airlines. So they're based outta there. We flew in air Asia, of course they paid for the tickets. Yeah. And,  we did the podcast and afterwards we got chatting and he said he wanted to start a podcast business. So he said, let's start. I wanna start my podcast. You guys are gonna do it. so wonderful. Well, that was the first client we got, you know, the first client we got

Grant McGaugh 26:10

that's two, you got two, you know, you get MTV, you're sitting there, you know, probably in your shorts winner, you know, where you gonna be able to afford new pants and here

Graham Brown 26:24 

you gotta put yourself out there Grant. You gotta put yourself out there, you gotta put yourself like to your audience. It's like, you know, sometimes that, that one deal is just around the corner. You gotta put yourself out there, you know, and just have faith that it will come. And that's what happened with Tony. You've gotta put yourself out there and be receptive and network, and podcasting is a great way to network, you know, for your, for your listeners. You think about how else could I have played that differently? I could have said to him, like, I'm gonna pitch you now. He would've just turned off. 

Grant McGaugh 26:57 

Right, right.

Graham Brown 26:59

Now, think about that with all those, these prospects that you have out there, you know, the, the business owners who, you know, they, they've all got those kind of maybe conversations in their pipeline or people who are starting their own business, or you're a consultant, you've got important and big leads out there. How do you get to them? This is such a great way of doing it, you know, learn from my story is okay. It worked for me and I think it can work for a lot of people, you know, I'm not necessarily a great salesperson. 

Grant McGaugh 27:29

Oh no, it's worked through, I learned that story, right. You know, I've been a sales professional for 20, 25 years. I remember when email was new. Right. Before that we were sending out snail mail, right. Knocking on doors and, you know, leaving brochures with the receptionist, you know, that, that was your thing. Right. And then the email came like, wow, I could send out hundreds of emails. Even when it first came out, people were like opening them up. And you really cool now, man, you can get an email through to anybody. Then, you know, the phone calls you pick up the phone, ask for somebody. I know people now, they don't even answer their business phone. Like I already know who's on the other line. I'm not even gonna pick that up. So if you don't have a person's mobile number, you're almost out of gas, you know, likely than picking up the phone, actually listening to your voicemail has, you know, just nose dive as to where it first started. So I decided last year, you know, I'm gonna do a podcast and do the exact same thing that you said. I'm going to have interesting guests. I'm going to then offer those guests to come onto the show and, you know, have a genuine conversation. Let's talk about it. No, no ulterior motive or anything like that, but it opens up communications and, and networking. Right. And, it's opened up my world exponentially. So I am a big fan of podcasting, but I hear people ask me all the time, like, well, how do you get sponsors, true sponsors, you know, to, to actually give you money to do a show. So how, tell us more about that? 

Graham Brown 29:09

Hmm. Well, I work in the B2B space, so where the audience, the ideal listener are business individuals. I mean, they're not businesses, they're individuals. So this would apply if you're a consultant, if you're a coach, if you're a startup founder, if you are any of the above, you know, and you're selling to other businesses or business leaders. When it comes to sponsorship, I tell people that you already have a sponsor for your podcast. You, so you already are the advertiser on your podcast and treat it like that because your ability to use that podcast to upsell your services, whatever those may be, or your product is huge. You're not gonna get a more cost effective and more authentic advertising platform than the one you have right now, which is the one where you are there as the voice and the face of the company. And you are building a relationship, not only with the audience, but with all these potential partners who are guests as well. There's a lot of focus on podcasts. We should really think about, I mean, if you're in the B to C space where you're creating advertising real estate, so let's say you're creating a true crime podcast or a history podcast or a sports podcast, where your goal is to get the eyeballs and earballs of your audience and then sell to an advertiser, that's different. But if you are in the business world, you should always think of yourself as the advertiser, and then think, okay, how do I use this now to sell my services because. Probably the likelihood is, is your service is conceptual. You know, it's not an off the shelf product. You might be selling a course or you might be selling yourself in your time as well. So it takes time for somebody to make a decision about that. And what a great way. Now, people, we used to go to the about us pages of the websites. Now people go and check out the podcast. Let's go and find out about Grant. What's he all about? I'm sure people listening now, if they go to my website, the first thing they'll do is check out the podcast, cuz they wanna know more. You know, if they're really interested, this is a really authentic way of, you know, discovering the person, selling these services, how, you know, compare that to the brochure, right. That we talked about or in the old days. 

Grant McGaugh 31:40 

Oh no,that's such an old way of doing it. What you just said, that's my playbook, right? That is the whole reason. I started the podcast ‘follow the brand'. I had a business, five star BDM. How can I effectively market my company and yes, I can invest in a lot of different ads, social media ads. It's a one way. I call it a spray and prey type of way and I'm not saying, you know, you tend to advertise, you know, there's certain ways of doing certain things, but when you're new and people don't know you very well, they're not familiar with the brand and there's a lot of noise out there. You, you don't wanna be just that one more pitch that they will not listen to. You know, so if a person's going to tune into a podcast, this is my thinking, they're going to invest time. They're gonna invest 20, 30, 40 minutes, you know, listening to a podcast that I am presenting with spectacular guest like yourself. That means that they're interested. And then I've created in my podcast, different advertisements built in commercials that I've created to tell you about the company that sponsors the podcast. So you're exactly right about, you know the purposes of that. And it has worked as far as getting, you know, new clients, people that are interested because I'm showing them what it is that I'm doing and giving knowledge and expertise just like now, I applaud you for what you have done. And I believe that everybody has a story. Everybody has an interesting story. You have an interesting story that I continuously continued to listen to because I like how you just said that it's like, Hey, I'm just not gonna show you how to go out and, you know, get X, Y, Z, to sponsor your podcast. No, you use, you are the sponsor. You create it. And if you do it at a good enough level and we'll, let's talk about this. We, I mentioned this even earlier, before we went live, is that there's a lot of podcasts out there. 

Grant McGaugh 33:55 

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Grant McGaugh 34:59

Hmm. So 4 million, that's a lot. Some of them, you know, you got the top level that are, I call, you know, upper eon very well done. Beautiful. And then you have those that you're like, oh my God, I wish they would not call that a podcast. You know, you just stop.

Graham Brown 35:21 

That was my first one.

Grant McGaugh 35:27

You know, you know, so there's, there's some levels of professionalism that has to take place in a podcast setting. And when you're gonna bring somebody, like, I have conversations like, well, why do you wanna do first? You have to have that. Why, why do you want to do this? And do you understand that? Does it is a time. It's a lot of commitment of time, money, resources, and you know, how are you going to leverage network, to have a consistent stream of guests, if you're doing guests, some people don't do guests. You know, it might be a one on one, but you've gotta really think it through to be successful. What are your thoughts on that?

Graham Brown 36:09

Yeah, you're really, the commitment part is key here, Grant, and you've made the commitment. I think you have to go into this long term. You're building an asset, you know, you talk about. The show, which you are advertising it yourself, what a great asset that is. And unlike advertising on somebody's, you know, website or on a search page, you own it. So you can take it and do whatever you want with it. And guess what, 10 years from now, people can still be listening to this episode. How wonderful is that? Think about the return on that investment, because we are sort of trained Grant, I feel in the social media world, this social media fire hose that we have to fight with every day. You think about Twitter or LinkedIn, as an example, you post, you'll get some likes tomorrow. You start all again. With, you know, start from zero, you pose to get some likes, start all again, and that's it. It's the casino of attention, right? It's, you know, it's, it's working against us, you know, you can never beat the house, so to speak in the casino, right. And it's working against us because it doesn't want us to build assets because if we can build assets, then we control everybody's attention and it doesn't work like that. On social media platforms, they own the attention. They own the commodity. So if you want to build an audience, if you want to own, earn attention, you have to build an asset and that's hard work. You have to step outside of social media a little bit. You know, I don't think a podcast as social media, I think, is connected to it obviously use social media, but you have to step outside. It's like writing a book or creating a podcast it's commitment. It's creating an asset. That's gonna last a lifetime. And therefore, you know, committing to 40-50 episodes, you know, that's gonna last you for years and years, you're gonna get pay pack. You're gonna get people come to you and say, Grant, Grant. Yeah.  I know Grant, he's the guy that does that podcast and they, they probably, you probably don't know this person. You've never met them. You'll get people at conferences. Walk up to you now that we're back in conference season, right? It's all starting again. Yeah, man. I listen to your podcast. That's like amazing. You get people come up to you that, you know, they don't even know what you look like, but they know. Right. Yeah. True. That's the wonder of creating, you know, something that's really authentic. And I think that is the power of a podcast compared to advertising, advertising, how does its space for sure. Yeah. You know, paper click has a real, you know, a very powerful tool, but this is top of funnel. This is about influencing, not acquiring. What a great way to inference people in your network. 

Grant McGaugh 39:04 

You said, right there, top of funnel. And the fact, what I realize is that now I've created, a library, you know, my own bookshelf. And in like my case, I have seasons. Right. So I have a personal branding season that goes out in the summer. I have a business development season. That's in the fall. I have career development that's in the winter and then financial empowerment in the spring. And so that becomes now a playbook that I continuously can utilize and repurpose for a lot of different things, not just the podcast because it's recorded. You know, I have the audio, I have the video. I can then, you know, reimagine a lot of those different things for different purposes. Maybe I'm gonna now be live, right on, at going to a, a conference and now I've got to have content to give them to go ahead and brand myself so I can create that right. Create that and put it out there. I also know that you brought up another good thing. I've now learned how to use the social media for my benefit, meaning I already know when I create a podcast and put it out on Twitter. Let's just say, it's gonna be top of feet because Twitter is top of feet. When I put it out on LinkedIn, it's gonna be top of feed or, a Facebook or Instagram. I already know this said, wow, you know what? I can control the content that's coming out that you know, someone specifically. Looking something around my podcast are going to Google, let's say my name. I already know what's going to appear. I control that because I know how they work. Like this is wonderful, so I can bring traffic to me. But I also love how you said that keyword ownership, you own the platform. So you're not waiting for it to go live or anything of that nature, you control the asset, it's yours. I tell people at times, that's why you need to own your own website. You need to have that. That's yours, that's your license, it's yours that you can do what you need to do with it, because if Facebook shuts down or, or something like that, you know, you're not completely shut down. You know, God forbid, you know, your, your, your hosting site goes down, but still the asset is there. So you bring up some very, very key points about how you can direct this particular platform to be used by you at your discretion to create the type of environment that you're looking for. 

Graham Brown 41:43

Yeah. The importance of building a system around all of that is key. A lot of people go into project casting, cuz it's exciting, but they don't do the groundwork that you're talking about. I talk about it. So one of the things I do is help people guest on other people's podcasts. And it's a great way to get in the game. It's an OnRamp to starting your own podcast in the future as well. And it's great now that there are podcasts like yourself out there who have built nurtured communities. So, you know, whatever your thing is, whatever your niche is, there are now podcasts out there. What I find is that one of the important parts. I break it down as a stage story system stage being the podcast story, being your storytelling and the narrative, and then system is what we're talking about here Grant is that, how do you create a system around podcasting? So it works for you. How do you build an asset? How do you build a workflow? And a lot of that is overlooked. People have the stage in the story. They can work all that out, but they don't have a system to convert all that effort into, you know, outputs that move the needle on your business. Right. You know, move the gauge. So the system part really comes down to building an asset and you've nailed it talking about having a website and then, what I talk about in the system is the omnichannel approach. The podcasting is you think of your podcast episode as the mother load of content, right? You think about that as your starting point, cuz what people tend to do, I see this a lot with entrepreneurs is that they have all these different channels in social and the website and then the podcast and then the newsletter and they're all vaguely aligned, but oh, I have to do the newsletter now it's Sunday and I've gotta do my LinkedIn for the week. And then I've gotta do my Twitter post and it's all, you know, different things going on and then different paces. Omnichannel really means you do once, which is you do the podcast. And then from that you get all these content derivatives. So one podcast, like you do can create video snippets. It can create transcripts. You can create a 9 to 12 page PDF of the transcript and our transcript costs a hundred bucks to get done now, there's plenty of services that do it for you and clean it up. Give that away. As a lead magnet, you know, something free, a freebie you can give away on your website, a list builder, you know, a podcast can create an article, which is great for SEO. And then you've got all the derivatives that you can post over social media. So what this does for the entrepreneur is not necessarily reduce the work time because it still requires work, but it reduces the decision fatigue of making decisions about what do I post where. Now, what do I post next? You know, the beauty of doing something like guessing is let's say you do four episodes, or even your own podcast, four episodes a month, one a week, every week, you've got this kind of rhythm section to your, you know, your orchestra, your band, your jazz band, which is just beating it's the beat. It's the metronome, it's the conductor, whatever it is, the drama. And that is the beat, which is your podcast goes out every week. And from that everything falls into place. I think it's so important because we waste so much time thinking, what am I gonna post? What am I gonna say? What happens next? And if you take all of that away and you just focus on doing the podcast, it frees up a lot of creative energies lost on stuff that really doesn't matter.

Grant McGaugh 45:31 

Oh, my God. And, and what you just said, or think about this audience, like you came out with a new product, a new service, a new recognition. You do it one time, right. And you've already got it in, in audio and you got it in video. And like you just said, you can easily transcribe it into a written form. and then you can utilize that asset over and over again, to, to launch. Now you've got your launchpad out there cause people consume their social media differently. You know, there's all kinds of different channels that are out there but if you can do it once that one to many type approach, then you start saying, okay, what's the, the time and money and commitment. And, you know, do a quick ROI, you know, of, of what I would have to do in place of it starts to make a lot of sense, and then you can craft your message. So someone's not having to, you know, discern what it is that you're doing or what is this product. So it's up to you, how you wanna display it, how you want it projected. How do you want it told, and then you own the story. I like how you said that narrative. I love. 

Graham Brown 46:50

You mentioned something very important there, Grant, you know, about the one to many part. and you will have realized the limitations and I've realized limitations in growing a business and your audience as well, going through this, is that the most valuable part of your business because you're not a Microsoft, you know, for most people, the business is Grant and that's the experience that we have of your business, right? It's you, and we trust you and we like you. We know you, and that's why we are buying from you. And we will listen to you because you're taking us on this journey. And that is the case for many, many businesses. And that's a really powerful asset in the business. However, the flip side of that is the most valuable part of your business is the least scalable. Like there's only one Grant. right. We can't clone you. We haven't worked out how to do it yet. You know, the AI isn't up to scratch yet. As of today, there's only one of you and that becomes the natural limit of the business. However, podcasts allow us to scale. They allow us to create that authentic conversation we're having now at scale, you know, it's like we're having a coffee sitting around the table, hopefully the listeners sitting with us as well. And we're just having a chat. Yeah. But we're doing it to thousands of people cross time zones. That's the authenticity at scale. That podcasting can provide. And the fact that, you know, your content is out there for years to come, the ROI is significant. So I would look at it from that respect is that, you know, to scale a business, any business you need, leverage of sort, you know, in investment terms, you need to be able to increase the ROI beyond its current level. And the problem is of being an entrepreneur is that you can. You your outcome today is the result of your best strategies that you're employing, right? Correct. So the only way to get beyond that is leverage, you know, you outsource, you delegate, you hire somebody, you invest, and that's where we are with podcasting, because what it allows us to do is it allows. A listener. They may be listening. Now you're listening now listener, right? You're you're hearing us, but you're not. You're here with us, but you're not physically here with us. You know, Grant could be asleep. I could be in a meeting. Grant could be flying somewhere. You know, I could be asleep, who knows, but we're having a conversation with you. Yeah, that's the power. We still can have these intimate conversations with people all over the world whilst we're not physically truly there. And they feel connected to us. And I think that is something only now as a result of coming out of this pandemic, do we really understand the value of that? And that's something when I think won't go away, that we need more and more today that connection, that real human connection. 

Grant McGaugh 49:48

Well, this has been wonderful. What we're sharing. And I already know that we got our, like you started earlier about those entrepreneurs who can't sleep at night, they're sitting down a beach and they're looking for their next adventure. And that could be a lot of different things, a lot of different things. And I encourage you definitely to tune to what Graham Brown has been doing it for a while, doing what I've been doing now for a while. And that is then how do I get my, my voice heard? How do I get it out there in a meaningful way that people will tune into you, you attract your audience and like, wow, that you're onto something, man. You, you said it earlier about, you're seeing small kids, you know, teenagers and Japan, you know, doing this, this thing now we know is texting, which is now a worldwide, you know, phenomenon. You're gonna see things that, as we go into this, you know, NFT metaverse world. What is that gonna look like? You know, that's a whole new business opportunity, a whole new branding opportunity. What is that gonna look like? You know, and, and where is the podcast going to set in that? And we all know that the power of the spoken word is very, very magnetic. Very very magnetic. And if you can control your voice and be able to clearly articulate your vision and as you said, you get into a timelessness zone, you can always tune in. I hope I'll be, you know, like you may be like an,  the Beatles since you're from anyway, you know, like, you know, I'm gonna throw on that old Beatles track and you kind of go back in time. They'll throw on. This episode of follow a brand, you know, so for, we're gonna wrap up now, are there any thoughts, anything that we have not really talked about, that's itching in you that you wanna tell the audience about podcasting? Why is it important that we haven't touched on? What would you like to leave us with? 

Graham Brown 51:57 

I feel that you just said it Grant that we really value that human connection, that the power of story and how that is timeless. I always think, for example, if you go back to some of the, the, the great speeches of yes, dear, even people like Martin Luther king, when he stood up on the, the Lincoln Memorial and, you know, he didn't stand up. And this, I think is his advice for anybody out there in public speaking, he didn't stand up in front of the crowd and said, I have a plan, well, he didn't, you know, he gave that famous speech. I have a dream speech, you know, and you think about the power of that, the vision and how that was communicated through story that some people in this world through maybe fear or habit would rather give us the PowerPoint presentation. But I think you have to be brave. You have to take on the, you know, the, the vulnerability of getting on stage and putting yourself out there like king did, right. And look at the power of that and how that transformed society and still today, you know, those words are still as powerful as they were in the sixties as they are today. And that, you know, that could be your, you know your Beatles analogy as well, that, that the, the word audio lasts for 50 - 60 years. You know, people are still playing Beatles songs. Now we're still listening to king and influenced by it. And that's why we need to get out there. We need to find a stage and the word stage itself from Latin means tostand. It's to take a stand, you know, to stand up a stand for something, whatever it is, even if that's something is your B2B niche, but you stand for something and have a voice. And that's what I put to everybody there. I challenge your audience to do that. 

Grant McGaugh 53:48

Oh my God. And I love that. That, that was wonderful because you. He, who does not stand for anything will fall for everything. Yeah. So this is an opportunity to stand up, have your voice heard and, and have a vision. What's your point of view? Why would somebody want really, you wanna listen to, and I think if you sat back. And sometimes you gotta do some strategizing about that and think what is the purpose that I'm really trying to achieve? What is my Why and how does that truly help another individual? And I think when you really have that story in locked in, man, your podcast will take off. Yeah. Yeah. So Graham, if they want, if my audience will like to contact you, what, what is the best. 

Graham Brown 54:35

Go to my personal website. That's a jumping off point. If you wanna find out about podcast guesting or podcasting or storytelling. So my website is grahamdbrown , so it's Graham D, get the D in there. Otherwise you get the wallpaper company, 

Grant McGaugh 54:53

Well, we'll definitely not get the wallpaper coming. We'll see what you're doing. You're also available on LinkedIn. I see you on LinkedIn, a lot and I totally appreciate you coming onto the show and spending some time with me and I'll tell the whole audience, you can view all the episodes on follow the brand at www.fivestarbdm, that's B for brand, D for development and And thank you very much again, Mr. Brown, for coming onto the show. You take care. It's been a real pleasure. Thank you. Absolutely.


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About The Author Graham Brown

Graham Brown is the founder of Podcast Guesting Pro. Graham is a published author on the subject of Digital Communication and Personal Branding (Amazon titles include "Brand Love: How to Build a Brand Worth Talking About" and "Mobile Youth: Voices of the Connected Generation). He has produced, project managed and guested on over 2,000 podcast episodes.