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Podcast Guesting Pro founder Graham Brown joins podcast host Jodi Krangle on the "Audio Branding" podcast to discuss being more human on your podcast. The following is a transcript of their conversation. For more tips on podcast guesting success, go to our podcast guesting resources.

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Graham Brown 00:00

If you've grown up not wanting to make mistakes, because that was beaten out of you in the system or if you've grown up trying to be perfect in your appearance. All of that, it's tough. Now you have to go onto a podcast and you have to be human, which is not easy.

Jodi Krangle 00:25

Welcome to audio branding. The hidden gem of marketing. Sound plays a more important role in human behavior and our decision making than you may realize. In this podcast, I'll help you understand the art and science of sound, so you can better influence others in business and your life. I'm your host, Jodi Krangle. Let's delve, a little deeper. This is the first part of my interview with Graham Brown. My next guest is the founder of Pikkal and company, an award-winning podcast agency, an AI powered, data-driven, B2B podcast agency in Singapore and the podcast accelerator, a mastermind of thought leadership podcast hosts. He's also a published author on the subject of the digital transformation of communication. So when it comes to getting his point across, he has a bit of an advantage. His passion for understanding how we use technology to communicate has led him to host several podcasts of his own, including podcast maps, the be more human podcast, the Excel podcast, Excel 10 minute leaders live and Asia tech podcast. He's published over a thousand podcast episodes and his work has been featured in the financial times and the wall street journal just to name a few. His list of clients is impressive too, including McKinsey, Leap, UTI investment bank, air Asia, NOKIA, UNICEF, Disney, and monster energy drinks. His name is Graham Brown. And if you wanna learn more about podcasting for your brand and effective communication in general, this interview will definitely be something you'll want to listen to. Well, thank you so much for being here with me, Graham, I really appreciate it. And I know it's the end of your day, cuz you're in Singapore, right?

Graham Brown 02:09

Thank you Jodi. Yeah, it's great to be here. 

Jodi Krangle 02:12

So my first question for you is, why Singapore?

Graham Brown 02:14 

So I live here in Singapore, lived here for three years, previously living in Japan and yeah, I've lived in Asia a lot of my life and Singapore's a great place. I mean, you've got the vantage point where you can, you know, you're very close to all the big markets, China, India, Southeast Asia. Japan career, et cetera. So it's got all of that going on and it's very familiar. If you speak English, it's an English speaking city. It's clean and it works. 

Jodi Krangle 02:42

It’s clean. It's clean and it works. Yeah. that? That's a good selling point to me. No, that's from Irish. No, yeah. That's fantastic. So what drew you to Asia in the first place? Cuz I know, from your accent. I mean, you're, you're obviously from someplace else. So I was just curious why you chose.

Graham Brown 03:01 

yeah. Well, yeah, I mean, I was always fascinated with Asia if you grew up of a certain age. So I was born in the early seventies. I was born in 72, so I mean, when I grew up in the eighties, Japan was it. I hear ya. Japan was Sony and TDK and Toshiba and all these brands like TDK tapes, 120 tapes. That was a big deal. That was like revolutionary and obviously the Sony Walkman. So for me, Asia was always the future, especially Japan. So when I got the chance, I went and taught English in Japan in 95, 96, I went out there. For me, that was like an opportunity to go to the future. And it was at the time Japan was just coming out of what they call the bubble. So the bubble economy, that was the end of Japan, Inc. But still it had traces of it. It was great. I wanted to go. I mean, Asia was the only really exotic place for me back then. If you think about it, if you grew up in, you know, the English speaking world, either you went to Europe, which you were very familiar with, or you went far east as it was called. 

Jodi Krangle 04:17

I love it. Yeah. So, yeah. That's probably shaped everything that you do right now, so that's fantastic. And I grew up in the same era as you, so I understand. Oh yes. Yeah.

Graham Brown 04:29

You understand mixed types.

Jodi Krangle 04:30 

I do. I do. What a pain in the butt. Those wore 

Graham Brown 04:35 

I used to love doing them for friends and, oh, they're fun. You know, trading them at school. And then you could, you were like an influencer before the world. If you could give people tapes, you were an influencer.

Jodi Krangle 04:49 

Well, the, or the early video games too, were all like a lot of them were Japanese companies, so, oh yeah.

Graham Brown 04:56

I mean, Sega . 

Jodi Krangle 04:57 

Yeah. Pretty awesome stuff back then. So, you know, that's one trip down memory lane I'm gonna ask you, but another one. Yeah, there's more, 

Graham Brown 05:05 

my life is just a memory lane. It is a long road, a long, long road. Yes. Well, lots of avenues are going off lanes

Jodi Krangle 05:13

So here's an avenue for you. What is the first sound that really made an impression on you? Like, do you have an early impression of a sound that really moved you? 

Graham Brown 05:25 

Well, the one I remember, I don't know what was sound that I remember distinctly. I mean, music has obviously made a big impression on me. My mom used to play Abba in the house on the record player. And then she had, I remember she had Sergeant peppers as the gate fold so that it would get a run out. And I also, mom, what, what does Lucy in the sky with diamonds mean? It's just a poem. Don't worry about it, son. Oh yeah. So I remember all of that. I was very much influenced by music in the, there was always music in the household. That's what I remember. Those quite made an impression upon me. 

Jodi Krangle 06:06

So how did you get involved in sound then? I mean, you've been doing that for a while. Communication and all of that kind of thing. So what led you in that direction? 

Graham Brown 06:15 

I dunno if I'm more geared towards sound. And I, some people say they're auditory learners and some are more tactile, kinetic and so on or visual. I'm not sure if I am. I'm not. Yeah. Some people have got really good visual memories. I'm not sure. I'm not sure if that's my disposition. However, if I think you are very much passionate about people, communication, travel, culture and languages, then sounds is the root of all of that. Really. Yeah. And therefore ended up in sound and storytelling obviously is a massive part of that. So, I don't think you can be passionate about storytelling and people and culture if you're not into sound, it's pretty difficult to do it. That's a good point. Yeah. So, you know, it's just a vehicle for me really. It's just the best way of doing it. The most effective way of doing it. 

Jodi Krangle 07:10

And then you wrote a book about communication, right? So yeah. How did that come about? 

Graham Brown 07:15 

Well, I was involved in the communications industry as it was called mobile back in 99, 2000, it started helping telecom's companies communicate with young people. And that was fascinating because they really didn't know how to do it. How to tell stories, how to communicate, how to engage pre-social media, you know, you're talking 99, 2000, therefore there was a big gap. I mean, now obviously brands know about social media, but back then it was brands, traditional advertising, teenagers. There were a lot of gaps in that formula. 

Jodi Krangle 07:54

Yeah. I know message boards. BBS. Yeah. And BBS. Yeah. They were all around. 

Graham Brown 07:59

Brands wouldn't know anything about that. They didn't know anything about theirs was, you know, big ad campaigns. There were a lot of communication gaps in that. And for me, that was very much like being back in Japan, trying to communicate with people in challenging environments. So you have to learn how to listen. That, that key skill, I mean, one, one thing I found about language as well is that if you wanna be, the base of language is listening, that you can, I've seen people, for example, and I've done this myself. If you're on like a subway in Japan, you see a westerner so an English speaking person and a Japanese speaking person and the Japanese. The Japanese person is speaking English and the westerner is speaking Japanese to each other. right. And it's really funny to watch. And there's a real reason for that, because if you can, if you can listen to me and understand me, then we both are on the same level. Right. But if I'm talking to you in English and you're Japanese, you won't get most of that. So listening to the base of everything I feel in communication and relationships, 

Jodi Krangle 09:06

Definitely agreed. So what's the process of writing a book about that? 

Graham Brown 09:13 

Well, my book was more like a travel story where I went around the world. I went to just a lot of crazy places. I went to India, I went to Brazil, to the favelas in Brazil. I went, obviously spent time in Japan and I was writing about how young people used mobile phones. Oh, okay. And I went to documentary from all of like an anthropological view. How did they use them? How did they use technology in their lives? What did it mean to them? And this was like 2008, 9, 10 that I was doing it and really captured that moment of what people were doing. Especially that generation, everybody was saying, oh, they're digital natives. They're just born into digital when they weren't really. Yeah. They were just trying to find a way to connect better. That's really what it was. You know, this was a generation that grew up without playing on building sites or in the road or whatever it was or playing out until dark. They were a generation that never had any of that. So they grew up very disconnected. And therefore that was a way of telling their story. You know, some young kids in Shanghai, Japan, or kids in the streets. Sorry, Shanghai, China and kids in Tokyo, or even the poor kids in there were like poor kids in favelas, in Brazil who had mobile phones and would document news. They would do news reporting from their phones inside the favelas, inside the slums. Right. It was really cool. 

Jodi Krangle 10:43 

So I guess everyone uses it in their own unique way. Did you find similarities between these places and what they used them for? I mean, was it documenting their life? Was it, were they thinking of influencing at that point or were they just telling people what the world was like?

Graham Brown 11:05

I think the last one, Jodi. And mostly dating. Dating seemed to be universal. I spent time in Saudi Arabia and at the time in 2008, I think it was that they were using Bluetooth. You would walk into a mall and you'd get bombarded with all these Bluetooth messages. And it would say like handsome prints wants to dine you tonight. It would be a message from handsome prince 13 or something. so that's the way they communicated with each other. And because they couldn't actually, you couldn't walk up to each other and, you know, chat loosely with somebody of the opposite sex. So it had to be done through Bluetooth and I found it's amazing. It was like somebody who built a wall between two groups of people and they'd worked out a way to tunnel under it effectively. You know how that works in history, right? That tunneling under it was the mobile phone and that tool to do that. And I found that that happened everywhere around the world, that young people had these walls in their lives and they were using technology to tunnel under it, climb over. There was, there was a really, really fascinating one from Japan where you talked about BBS. Now very, cut a long story short, basically Japan has used to have these public message board systems because of earthquakes because of tsunami and stuff like that, that they had these telephone systems where you phone up and then you would dial the box number, like say your box 100, and leave a message for Jodi. And that would be okay. We're safe. We're at the evacuation site. Everything's fine because this was before, you know, mobile phones really took off and before texting and then Jodi could phone the number and pick up the message from Graham and everything's fine, but about 95-96, young high school girls learn that they could use this system to leave messages for each other and for dating rather than, you know, because it wasn't controlled in the way nobody knew how they would use it. It was called dang gone dial and they would phone these boxes and they would leave a message like, you know, young prince 13 wants to dine new tonight or whatever the equivalent was or, you know, I'm into J pop I'm into snap or something like that, some group, and they corrupted it, but they turned into this really powerful messaging system and that, you know, that then led to texting later on. And so it was amazing how young people would really break the system to achieve that kind of social end. And that, that was universal. That was the amazing thing everywhere in the world, they were doing this. And at a later level, that became innovation, I suppose.

Jodi Krangle 14:10

Are you looking for ways to improve your company's or podcast's impact? You'd be surprised how powerful the use of an intentional audio branding strategy can be. Wanna know more? I have a free downloadable PDF that gives you my five tips for implementing an intentional audio strategy at voiceovers and That location does ask to put you on a mailing list. Just to send you updates on when the new podcasts come out. But if you really don't wanna give your email out, I understand just contact me directly. My email is all over my website and I'll make sure you get that PDF without needing to sign up anywhere. If you do sign up though, you also get access. To a resources section called the studio where I have videos, white papers and PDFs discounts from my guests and snippets of audio from my guests that no one else gets to hear. So maybe it's worth your while, totally up to you. And of course, if you're looking for voice overs, you can get in touch with me about that too.Now back to the podcast.

Jodi Krangle 15:11

What a great idea. I mean, if you're kept from doing things and you can do things, you know, beyond the view of people who would look at it dimly. Well, you know, and yeah, exactly. And you know how to use the system and they don't then that kind of, you know, yeah. It's an interesting 

Graham Brown 15:35

MP3s are the same, right? Remember Napster? Yeah. How that changed everything, really. I mean, because of Napster, we had iPod and because of iPod, we had iTunes because of iTunes. We had iPhone, look where we are now. 

Jodi Krangle 15:48 

Well, all the streaming that we have now. That's online movies, music, the podcasting itself. I mean yeah That's all to, 

Graham Brown 15:58

Netflix, Spotify, to the biggest media companies in the world, even Disney post now.

Jodi Krangle 16:04 

SiriusXM. I mean, all of these places, like they're all, they all own their existence to the early days of streaming. Kids. Pirates. It was. And then corporations take over 

Graham Brown 16:20 

They monetize it. Yeah. 

Jodi Krangle 16:22

That's always how it goes. it's funny how it's become so mainstream now, though, so, 

Graham Brown 16:29 

Oh, amazing. Yeah. You remember. My we're of a, of an age we'll remember, even I wasn't a, a heavy torrent user or a streamer. Oh yes. But I dabbled and there was a point in which actually, if you were found to have been using these torrent or these, you know, Napster on your ISP. That they would actually send you a cease and Des and sue you personally. Totally. And even, that was crazy. And they were VPNs in North America. 

Jodi Krangle 16:59 

VPNs came into being because of that. I mean, that was one of the big reasons. I'm sure that, so you could, you could mask your IP address. Right. And now people are using it in order to be able to watch a different country's Netflix stream. I mean like, so all of these things are, they all work together. 

Graham Brown 17:22

They do. Yeah. It's relentless, kind of amazing. But I guess at the end of the day, if you create any kind of barrier our natural disposition, which is to connect with people, then they will find a way. And it just so happens. I think the premium for younger people is higher. They've got less to lose and the value of connecting is higher, therefore they're the ones that are gonna find it first. Yeah. Yeah. And they don't mind. 

Jodi Krangle 17:45

They tend to be more immersed in it too. Yeah. So. I, here I am saying they, I still feel like they I'm 25

Graham Brown 17:55 

them kids, them kids 

Jodi Krangle 17:58 

get off my lawn, ruining it. Oh my goodness.

Graham Brown 18:04

Kids these days, isn’t it awful. You hear that? 

Jodi Krangle 18:10

Oh my goodness. But your mom didn't explain Lucy in the sky with diamonds to you so.

Graham Brown 18:14 

No, I don't think she knew she didn't understand it. That was the problem. Okay. She was only superficially into the Beatles. Okay. I see. Like everybody else in that generation, she didn't really understand what the lyrics meant. Well, yeah, I think she might have done, but maybe she was just maintaining face . 

Jodi Krangle 18:36

She didn't wanna tell her son 

Graham Brown 18:39

But I did ask her once she said John Lenon was her favorite Beatles. So that gave it away. She didn't say Paul McCartney, if she said Paul McCartney or Ringo Starr, like yeah. You don't understand what the lyrics are about. Okay. Yeah. 

Jodi Krangle 18:50

So she understood you thought. Yeah. yeah, 

Graham Brown 18:52

I was probably okay. Reluctantly. 

Jodi Krangle 18:56

That is funny. So, sort of switching gears a little bit here. Because I know that we're talking about communication definitely. And you've gotten really heavily into the whole podcasting thing. I mean, it it's Pikkal, right? That's your, yeah. Yeah. So why did you start that and, and look, what are you hoping to accomplish with it? 

Graham Brown 19:18

Well, I started it because it was really a to use a Gary V term, a side hustle. Ah, I see it was a side project. I had a podcast at the time. I started it as a pep project. And then 2017 people started asking me about it and how did they do it? And then I thought maybe I could monetize this. Then that snowballed into a business idea. And that then became a business. And then in 2018, we found that there were brands who needed help with podcasts. So after a few false starts, because it was difficult to monetize when we could sell them, but making a profit was different because there wasn't many playbooks. There wasn't any playbooks for podcasts then if you started as a social media agency, you had, you know, many options to, to borrow from. Right. But for us, it was all new territory here in Asia. So that's why we started. And we've tried things. So individual podcast and then sponsored podcast, and we did our own content, our own narrative podcast. And then really where we've settled is in helping corporations, enterprise tell stories. So that's what we do, mostly enterprise podcasts. So it's people like investment banks, IBMs, McKinsey's, these kinds of companies who have great content. You know, traditionally they've gone down very controlled communication channels, like PR and white papers and so on. So it's really interesting to see them flourish on these channels. 

Jodi Krangle 21:03

So how do you instruct people who are used to the corporate stuff in reaching people who aren't in the corporate environment or because I'm assuming that these people they're trying to reach aren't necessarily B2B all the time. I mean, if it is, then that's a different story, but, you know, if you're trying to reach the general public and explain to them what you do and why you do it and why it's important, how do you help these people tell their stories? 

Graham Brown 21:32 

Yeah. That's a really good question. It's important to remember that the, even the B2B audience are the general public. They're not different. They still resonate with stories. 

Jodi Krangle 21:43

They may know the terms a little more though, is what I'm getting after. 

Graham Brown 21:47

Yeah, they might be technical. Yeah, I think for them it's more, okay, if you were selling, for example, if it was a B2C story, then it would be mass market, et cetera, but really there isn't a lot of difference in the sense that you still have to tell stories. You still have to be engaging, you still have to be human and authentic. That's the challenging part today, because if you're record for anybody well, yeah, if, if you've grown not wanting to make mistakes, because that was beaten out of you in the system or if you've grown up trying to be perfect in your appearance, all of that, it's tough. Now you have to go onto a podcast and you have to be human, which is not easy. 

Jodi Krangle 22:34

Yeah. It's hard to be vulnerable. 

Graham Brown 22:37

Well, that's the key word, that is where it really starts to unravel because what is vulnerability? It isn't just, you know, being caring, it's about admitting mistakes and not pulling back, not editing yourself. Right. And that's really hard and takes practice. You always have to go back to the beginning of you in a sense and unpeel all these layers that we've built around ourselves. This armor that we've accumulated in the corporate world. And I guess if you are more, you're higher ranking, you're more likely to be good at that game, therefore harder to unlearn it.

Jodi Krangle 23:20

Definitely. I'm sure it would be really hard to be vulnerable as the CEO of a big company. You know? I mean, you're not sure you wanna put that out there, maybe. I don't know. I , but I, I think people admire it, but I don't know. I mean, is there a happy medium, do people just feel uncomfortable in general when they're doing it? Or do you work with people who are particularly comfortable doing that? 

Graham Brown 23:45

I think they have to want to do it.  If they're brought kicking and screaming into the recording, it's not gonna work. It's somebody not working here. Yeah. I get a feeling, this person doesn't want to do this. It's not, I, what I've found, I've found a couple of things. Firstly, there are those CEOs who love it and are really good and can be vulnerable. And one of the best ones I've worked with was Tony Fernandez from Air Asia. He's the founder of Air Asia. He's a billionaire entrepreneur. He's a bit like Mark Cuban in the US. Really, really good on podcasts. Very vulnerable, very authentic, but that's him. He runs a service business, an airline and therefore that works really well. In that instance, you can see how his personality then becomes the DNA of the brand. The story, like caring. If he looks after his people, his people look after us, the customers, right. That's the reality. So he works really well on that. And then what I found is there's another group who are career CEOs, chairmans and so on. They're not necessarily self-made CEOs. They'll go onto a podcast. And at the beginning, they'll come with their tile and shirt bites. And then, you know, by episode two, they're like, you know, loosen the shirt collar and, you know, roll up the sleeves and you see that progression, which is really nice. And they're, they're really loosen up and they're having fun. They turn up with all their notes. Episode one and then episode three or four, they've just got like a small piece of paper with bullet points on it. 

Jodi Krangle 25:24

They're winging it a little more. That's good. 

Graham Brown 25:26

 Yeah, it's cool. And you can see they're enjoying it. So there's that group, those, those, there's a lot of uplift with those guys. And then there suppose there's a group that just really will never get out of that shell. You give them a lot of opportunities, give them a lot of, you know, sitters, like, you know, to pull it out of them, but they always kind of pull back. They always talk in generics rather than specific stories. Yeah. And they, you know, they can never give examples and then it's very airy, their conversation. They can do 30 minutes without saying anything. 

Jodi Krangle 26:04 

Wow, yeah, that's kind of impressive. actually, well, maybe not for a podcast, but it's impressive in general.

Graham Brown 26:12

Do you think, so that is a skill, isn't it getting through? 

Jodi Krangle 26:16

Definitely. It’s a politician skill

Graham Brown 26:17 

Yeah, they jinx we're on the same page. It's like the one that gets asked the question, answer the question, Mr. Politician and they, they do everything. Answer it.  But there you go. Maybe that's it. Isn't it. Politicians and rock stars live two different, very, two different lives, right? Yes. Rock stars don't care about 51% of the vote. Do they? Rock stars is just 10%. It's like, you know, they can get away with all kinds of crazy behavior. Yeah. look at politicians. Like if a politician does so much as kiss his aid, there's a, there's a story in the. the UK at the moment, one British politician who's kissed his aid, you know, his aid being his, you know, support, his secretary and, now he's being booted out of the cabinet. It was a rockstar did that. They'd be like, yeah, whatever, not that I can can do it, but I'm just saying the point. It doesn't matter to the delivery, right? Yeah. So the point is it's like, you know, when you are, you are a politician, they're so fearful, of making mistakes. That's why they talk in complete generics all the time. You know, everybody's out there to stab you in the back. 

Jodi Krangle 27:34 

Yeah, it's tough to, be that much in the public eye and be aware of how hypercritical everyone is about everything you do. I mean, I imagine, yeah, my God, like there's, social media now is just, it's brutal. 

Graham Brown 27:52

Twitter. It's just noisy. 

Jodi Krangle 27:56 

But all forms of communication. 

Graham Brown 27:58

No, exactly. Is it though? 

Jodi Krangle 28:00

Well, I think it depends on who's using it now. Right? Like, has it gone past the development of the young people or is it like, yeah, is it just there now? And people are doing what they want with it or is it really innovative still? Who knows? 

Jodi Krangle 28:18

I know that we're all dealing with a lot of stuff these days. So I particularly wanted to acknowledge those that have taken the time to leave honest reviews of this podcast. Like Elaine Grant, who called the show - insightful, practical, eye opening. As a veteran public radio producer and host, she says, and now an entrepreneur running a podcast consultancy. I thought I knew about the world of audio. Truth is I knew just a small slice of this big and important world. I've learned so much from every episode. I need to re-listen and furiously take notes. I can't recommend audio branding highly enough. Thank you for taking the time to leave your comment, Elaine, it means so much to me. And now back to the show. 

Jodi Krangle 29:02

I think that's kind of where social media is going. That's kind of why clubhouse became such a huge deal I think, cuz it was new and it was a little exciting and it was a really intuitive way of communicating. So I don't know. I don't know where that's gonna go, but I know Twitter spaces has its own. So Spotify green room. Yeah. Spotify green room. Although right now it's just kind of the skin of something. From Spotify put onto something that was called, I think locker room. Yeah. That's right. Yeah. 

Graham Brown 29:38

So yeah, there's all sorts of things. It's a mess at the moment. It's really messy and really bug. They'll fix it. I mean, they've got money these guys. 

Jodi Krangle 29:45 

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, certainly clubhouse got a whole bunch of, investment money. Yeah. I mean, that's good for them. I think it's fantastic. I'm on there a lot. Social audios. I am there a lot. Yeah. I have weekly discussions with people about the power of sound actually. Cool. And anytime you wanna join me, you're more than welcome. Yeah. 

Graham Brown 30:08 

That's awesome. Yeah. You're hanging in there with clubhouse and, but now that it's died down and kind of settled a little bit and all the, the fly by audiences have gone now. It's kind of people actually using it for what it should be used for, right?

Jodi Krangle 30:22

Yeah. I mean, I'm enjoying it for the fact that it allows me to just be audible. As opposed to having to worry about my makeup on a screen. You know what I mean? Like, oh yeah. It's a little painful, you know, sometimes being on zoom can be just annoying. 

Graham Brown 30:39

yeah. Yeah. I think half the world feels like that then, right?

Jodi Krangle 30:43 

Oh yeah. By now. Yes. We're all pretty tired. yeah, but, but our voices are natural selves in a lot of ways. I mean, it's hard for you to put on. I mean, you can, I'm a voice actor, I should know, but , but you can put on a voice, but it tends to, you know, your true self tends to come through in your voice a lot more than it does maybe in your expressions.. 

Graham Brown 31:10 

Absolutely. Steven Covey's book, the seven habits of highly effective people. Best selling personal development book of all time. He wrote the follow up book, which I read as well, which is really good. Eighth habit, and the eighth habit he wrote in, I think in the nineties because of things have moved on since he wrote the seven habits in the eighties. And then, you know, obviously the information age was upon us in the nineties with windows. He wrote that. And he said the eighth habit was finding your voice. And your, your voice being your true self and the gift that you have, you're absolutely right. You can't fake it. And when we talk about finding our voice, we really mean that finding ourselves, that's what it means in, you know, indirect translation, I suppose, in everyday language.

Jodi Krangle 32:00 

Yeah. Yeah. It's an important part of being able to relate to people 

Graham Brown 32:07 

Oh yeah. You know, absolutely. Well, I think my wife, for example, she'll say you're not listening to me. right.  And it never says you're not looking at me, like, when we, you think about that in terms of how that is in our relationships, we feel heard, I feel heard to means to be understood, doesn't it literally? When you hear somebody, I hear you means I feel your pain almost. Doesn't that, you know, when we talk about customers, we listen to them. So all of that, I mean, that's so important. Like audio is the base of relationships. Human relationships. 

Jodi Krangle 32:46

I totally agree. It's the whole reason for this podcast. yeah. I mean, it really is a huge part of, you know, not just what we buy, but how we relate to one another, our daily lives, everything we do. So yeah, it is super important and, and it really reveals who we are to each other. 

Graham Brown 33:06

Yeah. There's been a lot of work done in obviously deep, fake now hasn't that. For example, transplanting your voice onto Barack Obama's and all that kind of nonsense. And it's really interesting how that's going. And most of it is obviously video, but to fake audio is really hard whilst you can fake transactional audio. Like you phoning the restaurant and putting in an order, you can't fake this. This is really hard. There's too many nuances and subtleties and lanes, avenues that you go down that a machine can't understand. There's too much fuzziness there.

Jodi Krangle 33:48 

This has been part one of our interview. I hope you'll tune in next week for part two. Well, that's the end of this episode. Thanks for listening. And if you like what you heard, why not tell a friend about this podcast; it's available in all the usual locations. Until next time.


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About The Author Graham Brown

Graham Brown is the founder of Podcast Guesting Pro. Graham is a published author on the subject of Digital Communication and Personal Branding (Amazon titles include "Brand Love: How to Build a Brand Worth Talking About" and "Mobile Youth: Voices of the Connected Generation). He has produced, project managed and guested on over 2,000 podcast episodes.